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Spoilers! Loose threads

Aliens? Invading aliens? What will Earth do? Well...we may have a few more resources than we first thought. Come join a friendly discussion about David Weber's newest Tor series - "Out of the Dark."
Re: Spoilers! Loose threads
Post by Isilith   » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:57 am

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A minor note, when we are tossing out timelines it appears that all of you are using "galactic standard", which isn't humanities base time. GS time vs Human timekeeping was about 1:2.5, wasn't it? As in 2 & 1/2 human years to 1 GS year.

That said, shouldn't be be at least doubling the time lines quoted? Or, are we just sticking to GS time?
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Re: Spoilers! Loose threads
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:39 am

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Isilith wrote:A minor note, when we are tossing out timelines it appears that all of you are using "galactic standard", which isn't humanities base time. GS time vs Human timekeeping was about 1:2.5, wasn't it? As in 2 & 1/2 human years to 1 GS year.

That said, shouldn't be be at least doubling the time lines quoted? Or, are we just sticking to GS time?


Hello Isilith

I've been trying to use T-years. The Galactic Hegemony has been in existence for 75,000 standard years or 150,000 T-years. A fifth founding member might have existed at that point, if they existed.

When they were excised from the record is our point of discussion. I'm arguing that it must have been no more than 25,000 T-years into the GH's existence, 50k at most. Past that, there would be too many people, races and other records they'd have influenced to completely erase.

I'm also arguing that 100,000 to 125,000 T-years is a very long time for the fifth founding race to remain incognito from the GH, which means the OG and the fifth founders may not be the same.
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Re: Spoilers! Loose threads
Post by FriarBob   » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:03 am

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PeterZ wrote:For all this to work out, the OG have to be libertarians of the highest order. The WILL NOT make decisions for any other species. [...] I don't see a herd mentality becoming libertarian in this way. Predators can accept such a libertarian POV easily enough.

Bottom line is that I can a see a society evolved from predators both manipulating the universe around them AND remaining separate from the universe as I postulated. Herd creatures would see such a separation as being too unnatural for their comfort.


I can buy some of this, but not all. For one, I agree herd-based herbivores would not do this, but I also don't think you'd get this from predators. It would seem it would have to be omnivores... or maybe non-herd-based herbivores, if such a thing even existed.

But your idea of them being 'ultra-libertarians' might explain where they went. In this interpretation "they" as a species didn't actually try to help, they just plain left, much like the "elder races" in Babylon 5. The few examples of them 'helping' are the exception that TM thinks couldn't avoid being detected. If they are technologically superior enough I would think surely they could... IF there were very few of them actually trying to help. Maybe a few dozen small groups. The rest went 'you guys will survive or not on your own, good luck' and headed out to explore "beyond the rim".
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Re: Spoilers! Loose threads
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:59 pm

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FriarBob wrote:
I can buy some of this, but not all. For one, I agree herd-based herbivores would not do this, but I also don't think you'd get this from predators. It would seem it would have to be omnivores... or maybe non-herd-based herbivores, if such a thing even existed.

But your idea of them being 'ultra-libertarians' might explain where they went. In this interpretation "they" as a species didn't actually try to help, they just plain left, much like the "elder races" in Babylon 5. The few examples of them 'helping' are the exception that TM thinks couldn't avoid being detected. If they are technologically superior enough I would think surely they could... IF there were very few of them actually trying to help. Maybe a few dozen small groups. The rest went 'you guys will survive or not on your own, good luck' and headed out to explore "beyond the rim".

Beyond the Rim? Likely not.

What I am thinking of is the Vmap's nanites. Those nanites can make the vamp immaterial and undetectable to GH tech. I am postulating that the OG haven't left to go Beyond. They are still part of the galaxy. In all likelyhood they have their own systems still that the GH do NOT visit. They exist as nanites absorbing energy and communicate just like the Vamp's nanites communicate with each other in ways that the GH can't sense.

I suspect that the OG can travel around the galaxy and observe the biologic life forms as they wish. So, some of the OG may well be experimenting in general uplift to break the GH stagnation, while others are just observers or even conducting their own experiments. As predators/omnivores it strikes me as highly likely they will see the universe as their hunting ground. The libertarian streak in them might limit just how they interact with their hunting grounds.

Yeah, this is all speculation FB. Yet, why the heck did they make something that can create vamps available to humanity? I doubt they left anything like that machine there unless the result that manifested was within the realm of possibility they knew about. This was no accident. The result of vampires was either a known side effect or the actual goal.
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Re: Spoilers! Loose threads
Post by Joat42   » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:27 pm

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PeterZ wrote:What I am thinking of is the Vmap's nanites. Those nanites can make the vamp immaterial and undetectable to GH tech.

They aren't undetectable to GH tech which is touched on in ITL, it's just that nobody has been looking for a lack of emissions since the nanites absorb incoming radiation.

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Re: Spoilers! Loose threads
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:36 pm

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PeterZ wrote:What I am thinking of is the Vmap's nanites. Those nanites can make the vamp immaterial and undetectable to GH tech.
Joat42 wrote:They aren't undetectable to GH tech which is touched on in ITL, it's just that nobody has been looking for a lack of emissions since the nanites absorb incoming radiation.

Agreed. I suppose I was referring the communication between nanites was undetectable, rather than their presence. I can see that if the dispersal of nanites was greater, the lack of emissions would be less concentrated and hence harder to detect. Vamp's are still legacy enough to want to materially interact with the universe at large.

Assuming greater technology, the OG may not need to concentrate their nanite density as high as vamps to manipulate the universe at large. Lower nanite density might make the lack of emissions more easily obscured by background radiation.
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Re: Spoilers! Loose threads
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:58 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I suspect that the OG can travel around the galaxy and observe the biologic life forms as they wish. So, some of the OG may well be experimenting in general uplift to break the GH stagnation, while others are just observers or even conducting their own experiments. As predators/omnivores it strikes me as highly likely they will see the universe as their hunting ground. The libertarian streak in them might limit just how they interact with their hunting grounds.


Does it even make sense to talk about predator / omnivore for creatures that eat pure energy? And therefore do not prey on other creatures? It's a completely different niche.

We could argue that their racial psychology evolved over the aeons when they were still physical, but by the same token we can postulate that their post-physical evolution also meant a change of worldview.
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Re: Spoilers! Loose threads
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:25 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I suspect that the OG can travel around the galaxy and observe the biologic life forms as they wish. So, some of the OG may well be experimenting in general uplift to break the GH stagnation, while others are just observers or even conducting their own experiments. As predators/omnivores it strikes me as highly likely they will see the universe as their hunting ground. The libertarian streak in them might limit just how they interact with their hunting grounds.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Does it even make sense to talk about predator / omnivore for creatures that eat pure energy? And therefore do not prey on other creatures? It's a completely different niche.

We could argue that their racial psychology evolved over the aeons when they were still physical, but by the same token we can postulate that their post-physical evolution also meant a change of worldview.

Indeed so. Yet any change of world view has to begin somewhere. A starting point of a pure predator would probably have deeper Us vs. Them demarcations to overcome. It can't be any other way for a species that lives by killing and consuming other animals. Regarding other beings as just objects for their appetite is clearly a separation between us and them. Omnivores can sustain themselves with plants as well as other animals. Transitioning between viewing other beings as food is less an existential threat as would be the case with predators.

A pure predator would be far less likely to take a hands off attitude to the universe after they have achieved their nanite tech. They would be much more likely to see other beings as their prey to "hunt" as they see fit. Standing aside and letting things flow as circumstances direct would be much farther from that base PoV than would be the case for omnivores or even herbivores. Predators gain their sustenance through their direct actions; kill then eat. Herbivores can grow food which requires creating crops and then letting the plants develop. The former requires constant direct activity and the latter requires letting the universe develop on its own to some extent.

So, yeah, considering the evolutionary track of the OG is helpful to answering why that machine was left to create Vlad.
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Re: Spoilers! Loose threads
Post by Joat42   » Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:50 pm

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PeterZ wrote:So, yeah, considering the evolutionary track of the OG is helpful to answering why that machine was left to create Vlad.

Perhaps the OG just evolved into pure energy or whatever which scared the shit out of the remaining races in the GH. The thing Vlad found is perhaps just leftover technology the GH hasn't found and destroyed yet.

When dealing with unknowns introduced by rfc the real story is usually far simpler than the rabbit holes we go down trying to explain them. :)

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Re: Spoilers! Loose threads
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:24 pm

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PeterZ wrote:So, yeah, considering the evolutionary track of the OG is helpful to answering why that machine was left to create Vlad.
Joat42 wrote:Perhaps the OG just evolved into pure energy or whatever which scared the shit out of the remaining races in the GH. The thing Vlad found is perhaps just leftover technology the GH hasn't found and destroyed yet.

When dealing with unknowns introduced by rfc the real story is usually far simpler than the rabbit holes we go down trying to explain them. :)

No. Those unknowns are often explained simply but ALWAYS explained consistently within the his plot.

This discussion about evolutionary tract within the story has been central to explaining other HG species and will likely be central to explaining who put that machine on earth.
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