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Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?

Aliens? Invading aliens? What will Earth do? Well...we may have a few more resources than we first thought. Come join a friendly discussion about David Weber's newest Tor series - "Out of the Dark."
Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:24 pm

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As of 15-20 years before the end of Into the Light, humanity attained interstellar speeds 11 times faster than the Hegemony. At that rate David could have left 3.6 years before the end of the book to catch up with Vlad. That leaves earth with between 12-17 years to have reached out to those other two civilizations they were considering. Assuming they waited for David to return before they sent their missions to those civilizations.

I wonder if they waited until they built their new ships before they sent out those other missions. I suspect they did. In that scenario, humanity may have had several allies join their alliance. Those experiences probably suggested to David that the Shongairi could be realigned with a suitable show of force that did not involve killing a significant portion of their population. Showing up with a ship that outclasses their tech as much as Shongairi ships outclassed anything humanity had pre invasion would pretty much do the trick.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by FriarBob   » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:07 am

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Hmm... a few quibbles...

As of 26 years before the end of the book they had the disastrous first attempt at a proof of concept of the new power system... but they didn't actually yet have either the power system or the faster drives that they expected to power with it. Then 11 years later they were still using a ship with a rotating core. So that means at least one of two three things must be true:

1) While they did have arti-grav by then (see the shuttle discussion) they could not yet power it on a ship-wide basis... which also means they still hadn't "worked out the bugs" on the power for the advanced drives yet either

and/or

2) Building the ships takes too long, even though they had the tech they couldn't build the new ships fast enough.

We do know they have the tech by the END of the book, but not how soon before then.

My gut says 'just barely in time'. I'm going to say probably about 5 years after Clint Eastwood's (in)famous line got oum to surrender. That still leaves (barely) enough time to build the new ship(s) (assuming building something that size takes about 2 years) and still beat Vlad to the puppy homeworld.

But I doubt they used those ships on the other two planets discussed in the book. Especially not the class 5. What would a 16th century culture do except bow down and worship their new gods? Maybe fight to the death if they're like the Norse. But otherwise, it would be too big a jump. Now maybe they used them for a survey to check in on the planets. Maybe. And then if those other planets were badly off in the estimates, then I withdraw this objection... but otherwise nope don't buy it.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:35 am

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Ok, they sent out their missions to the other two civilizations as the new ships are being developed. I still think Dave is trying to gather every species on the outs with the Hegemony into Earth's alliance. If the Shongairi can be cowed into cooperating, that is.

I wonder if Dave plans on sending emissaries to other omnivore species high up on the Hegemony's $hit list? That seems to be a high risk/high reward strategy.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:50 am

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Oh, I suspect that Clan Dvorak Might just join the Republic of Diantos and save everyone a bunch of headaches. Sort of like Steadholder Dvorak in a backhanded way. Seems like the best way to legitimately shift from their rule of custom to the rule of law.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:23 pm

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I suspect that there are elements/people within Clan "Dvorak" might be encouraged to work on the transition from "rule of custom" to "rule of law" without joining the Republic.

For one thing, I suspect that there are powerful "families" within the Clan who be willing to become a "House Of Lords" that would start the basis of "Law" (instead of custom).

PeterZ wrote:Oh, I suspect that Clan Dvorak Might just join the Republic of Diantos and save everyone a bunch of headaches. Sort of like Steadholder Dvorak in a backhanded way. Seems like the best way to legitimately shift from their rule of custom to the rule of law.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:52 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Oh, I suspect that Clan Dvorak Might just join the Republic of Diantos and save everyone a bunch of headaches. Sort of like Steadholder Dvorak in a backhanded way. Seems like the best way to legitimately shift from their rule of custom to the rule of law.

DrakBibliophile wrote:I suspect that there are elements/people within Clan "Dvorak" might be encouraged to work on the transition from "rule of custom" to "rule of law" without joining the Republic.

For one thing, I suspect that there are powerful "families" within the Clan who be willing to become a "House Of Lords" that would start the basis of "Law" (instead of custom).

You are suggesting that they apply the federal model with Clan Dvorak as one of the prominent member states. I think that is unlikely because Dave's clan would have a very significant representation in the federal government. So heavy that he would straddle leadership roles in two polities in the soon to be Galactic Union.

That might be interesting to read about, but seems to seriously court a Mary Sue complex. I suspect David can dance on that tight rope quite well, but would seriously approach an enjoyable parody. We'll see.

Now, if David joins the Republic as an intact Clan, the former Empire of Qwern participates as one part of the Republic which is influenced by many other clans. The impact of his Clan is still large, but his input is mitigated by the existing political structures of the Republic. Think of it as a safeguard against leaving agents who would abuse what powers he delegates to them when he leaves.

Your idea of the House of Lords is pretty good. I suspect that's how it will shake out. Not sure how they will address their need for a strong executive branch though. I can easily see the Sarthian planetary government going the Parliamentary route. I doubt they will take the UK route and have a pure figurehead as head of state. Maybe something similar to the French model with an elected chief executive as well as a parliament led by a prime minister.

Can't wait to read more of this series.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:41 pm

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My thought is that are possible "divisions" within the Clan.



PeterZ wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Oh, I suspect that Clan Dvorak Might just join the Republic of Diantos and save everyone a bunch of headaches. Sort of like Steadholder Dvorak in a backhanded way. Seems like the best way to legitimately shift from their rule of custom to the rule of law.

DrakBibliophile wrote:I suspect that there are elements/people within Clan "Dvorak" might be encouraged to work on the transition from "rule of custom" to "rule of law" without joining the Republic.

For one thing, I suspect that there are powerful "families" within the Clan who be willing to become a "House Of Lords" that would start the basis of "Law" (instead of custom).

You are suggesting that they apply the federal model with Clan Dvorak as one of the prominent member states. I think that is unlikely because Dave's clan would have a very significant representation in the federal government. So heavy that he would straddle leadership roles in two polities in the soon to be Galactic Union.

That might be interesting to read about, but seems to seriously court a Mary Sue complex. I suspect David can dance on that tight rope quite well, but would seriously approach an enjoyable parody. We'll see.

Now, if David joins the Republic as an intact Clan, the former Empire of Qwern participates as one part of the Republic which is influenced by many other clans. The impact of his Clan is still large, but his input is mitigated by the existing political structures of the Republic. Think of it as a safeguard against leaving agents who would abuse what powers he delegates to them when he leaves.

Your idea of the House of Lords is pretty good. I suspect that's how it will shake out. Not sure how they will address their need for a strong executive branch though. I can easily see the Sarthian planetary government going the Parliamentary route. I doubt they will take the UK route and have a pure figurehead as head of state. Maybe something similar to the French model with an elected chief executive as well as a parliament led by a prime minister.

Can't wait to read more of this series.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:47 pm

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DrakBibliophile wrote:My thought is that are possible "divisions" within the Clan.

They already have an aristocracy based warrior culture. Might that culture support a House of Lords as a timocratical upper house for those that have served in the military? Perhaps with length of service rather than having an officer's commission as the operating metric.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:58 am

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PeterZ wrote:As of 15-20 years before the end of Into the Light, humanity attained interstellar speeds 11 times faster than the Hegemony. At that rate David could have left 3.6 years before the end of the book to catch up with Vlad. That leaves earth with between 12-17 years to have reached out to those other two civilizations they were considering. Assuming they waited for David to return before they sent their missions to those civilizations.


The math doesn't add up there, Peter. At 11c, the trip of 241.5c takes nearly 22 years. If PUNS Vanguaurd returned to Earth immediately after the close of the normal chapters and then David immediately transferred to a newly-built and ready ship to go after Vlad, he'd arrive on Year 46 or 47.

That means the ship that intercepts Vlad must have had a pseudo-velocity of more than 11c. But note that she could only accelerate in n-space at 100 gravities, which is less than double what Târgoviște could do (maybe they were holding back...).

I wonder if they waited until they built their new ships before they sent out those other missions. I suspect they did. In that scenario, humanity may have had several allies join their alliance. Those experiences probably suggested to David that the Shongairi could be realigned with a suitable show of force that did not involve killing a significant portion of their population. Showing up with a ship that outclasses their tech as much as Shongairi ships outclassed anything humanity had pre invasion would pretty much do the trick.


My guess: no other mission was launched until the one to Sarth came back. They were after that, more than one simultaneously, and David was in none of them. Instead, I expect David left to intercept Vlad on the first second-generation DN (maybe call them SD?), around Year 30-35.

Unless they found a Wormhole Junction...
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by Joat42   » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:11 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
PeterZ wrote:As of 15-20 years before the end of Into the Light, humanity attained interstellar speeds 11 times faster than the Hegemony. At that rate David could have left 3.6 years before the end of the book to catch up with Vlad. That leaves earth with between 12-17 years to have reached out to those other two civilizations they were considering. Assuming they waited for David to return before they sent their missions to those civilizations.


The math doesn't add up there, Peter. At 11c, the trip of 241.5c takes nearly 22 years. If PUNS Vanguaurd returned to Earth immediately after the close of the normal chapters and then David immediately transferred to a newly-built and ready ship to go after Vlad, he'd arrive on Year 46 or 47.

That means the ship that intercepts Vlad must have had a pseudo-velocity of more than 11c. But note that she could only accelerate in n-space at 100 gravities, which is less than double what Târgoviște could do (maybe they were holding back...).

I wonder if they waited until they built their new ships before they sent out those other missions. I suspect they did. In that scenario, humanity may have had several allies join their alliance. Those experiences probably suggested to David that the Shongairi could be realigned with a suitable show of force that did not involve killing a significant portion of their population. Showing up with a ship that outclasses their tech as much as Shongairi ships outclassed anything humanity had pre invasion would pretty much do the trick.


My guess: no other mission was launched until the one to Sarth came back. They were after that, more than one simultaneously, and David was in none of them. Instead, I expect David left to intercept Vlad on the first second-generation DN (maybe call them SD?), around Year 30-35.

Unless they found a Wormhole Junction...

We don't know what happened to the progress of technology between the mission to Sarthar and Dvorak catching up with Vlad. Considering how much they pushed the boundaries up to the first failed experiment it's entirely possibly they pushed it even farther before Dvorak returned to Earth.

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