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Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?

Aliens? Invading aliens? What will Earth do? Well...we may have a few more resources than we first thought. Come join a friendly discussion about David Weber's newest Tor series - "Out of the Dark."
Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by Isilith   » Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:23 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
I think Earth has come to realize that genocide isn't the proper response, the species as a whole isn't guilty of what some of those in power did.


Minor quibble with that, that is how their entire race thinks. And we KNOW that is how they think, the book even points out that they were eating humans, and human children. So,yeah, no human ( well, sane human ) would miss a species like that.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:39 pm

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Isilith wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
I think Earth has come to realize that genocide isn't the proper response, the species as a whole isn't guilty of what some of those in power did.


Minor quibble with that, that is how their entire race thinks. And we KNOW that is how they think, the book even points out that they were eating humans, and human children. So,yeah, no human ( well, sane human ) would miss a species like that.


While I agree they wouldn't be missed that's not the same thing as favoring genocide. Lesser means should be tried first. They certainly don't eat other members of the hegemony, they are capable of civilized behavior.

I'd favor showing up, punching out anything that's a threat and then demanding to speak to the whole planet:

"Despite your atrocious conduct towards our race we are giving you one chance as we recognize that you have not been properly educated as to civilized behavior. You are on a short leash, though--any further military action directed at any sapients, or any eating of sapients will result in the extermination of your species as too big a risk to have around."
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by Bluesqueak   » Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:39 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Isilith wrote:
Minor quibble with that, that is how their entire race thinks. And we KNOW that is how they think, the book even points out that they were eating humans, and human children. So,yeah, no human ( well, sane human ) would miss a species like that.


While I agree they wouldn't be missed that's not the same thing as favoring genocide. Lesser means should be tried first. They certainly don't eat other members of the hegemony, they are capable of civilized behavior.

I'd favor showing up, punching out anything that's a threat and then demanding to speak to the whole planet:

"Despite your atrocious conduct towards our race we are giving you one chance as we recognize that you have not been properly educated as to civilized behavior. You are on a short leash, though--any further military action directed at any sapients, or any eating of sapients will result in the extermination of your species as too big a risk to have around."


Minor minor quibble - the Shongairi eat their defeated enemies, so of course they wouldn’t eat other members of the Hegemony. They haven’t defeated them yet.

I can’t think of any occasion where they ate ( or threatened to eat) humans who hadn’t been perceived as attacking them and then defeated in combat. Even the kids they ate were in the car that attacked them (as they thought). The threats to eat Howell are over his perceived disloyalty.

It all seems rather like human ritual cannibalism; I don’t think Dave, for example, is likely to propose genocide for a practice that also turns up in human history. Besides, if humans defeat them, the problem is likely to morph into the Shongairi thinking we should eat them.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:21 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:"Despite your atrocious conduct towards our race we are giving you one chance as we recognize that you have not been properly educated as to civilized behavior. You are on a short leash, though--any further military action directed at any sapients, or any eating of sapients will result in the extermination of your species as too big a risk to have around."


I'd send a simpler message, one they are more likely to understand: "you've been defeated, therefore we are stronger. Submit."
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:18 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:"Despite your atrocious conduct towards our race we are giving you one chance as we recognize that you have not been properly educated as to civilized behavior. You are on a short leash, though--any further military action directed at any sapients, or any eating of sapients will result in the extermination of your species as too big a risk to have around."
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'd send a simpler message, one they are more likely to understand: "you've been defeated, therefore we are stronger. Submit."

I tend to agree with Loren. The Terran Empire asserts they will receive specific concessions from the Shongairi without acknowledging alternatives exist. This is what you will do. Period. When they don't, destroy their military capability....and wait for them to comply. If they do not respond, destroy their orbital infrastructure a bit at a time.

The message is that humans would just as soon kill the Shongairi as accept them in any capacity as part of the Empire. Acceptance is completely on the Empire's terms. WHATEVER changes the Empire requires will be adopted or the Shongairi will be genocided. Period.

The Shongairi either find a way to alter their society and government to be compatible to the empire or they die. Requiring submission relies too much on Shongairi values/assumptions for what submission means in a practical sense. Screw that. The Shongairi did a good job of accommodating the GH's requirements into their own predatory mindset. The entire idea of submission translates too well into pack squabbles for authority. Far better to provide THE acceptable way for the Shongairi to express their political goals. Any other way leads to destruction. Not a sort of survivable chastisement, but complete and total destruction.

All the other member cultures of the Terran Empire may be given some slack. Those cultures that have been part of the GH would receive less slack than emergent cultures for similar reasons. Should the Shongairi fully adopt the changes the empire offered them, they can exist as equals to the other member cultures.

So the alternatives are to comply or die.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:25 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:"Despite your atrocious conduct towards our race we are giving you one chance as we recognize that you have not been properly educated as to civilized behavior. You are on a short leash, though--any further military action directed at any sapients, or any eating of sapients will result in the extermination of your species as too big a risk to have around."


I'd send a simpler message, one they are more likely to understand: "you've been defeated, therefore we are stronger. Submit."


I'm trying to avoid having to occupy them.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:47 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'd send a simpler message, one they are more likely to understand: "you've been defeated, therefore we are stronger. Submit."


I'm trying to avoid having to occupy them.


Once submitted, wouldn't they stay submitted and under the direction of the new alpha?

I don't think they were defeated by the GH, so they currently don't think they've submitted. Therefore, it may not be required of them to stay under the GH's control and escaping that is what they had been planning to do.

Humanity shouldn't trust them to stay submitted, though. A cruiser left as picket in the system can ensure that they do, though.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:15 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'd send a simpler message, one they are more likely to understand: "you've been defeated, therefore we are stronger. Submit."


I'm trying to avoid having to occupy them.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:Once submitted, wouldn't they stay submitted and under the direction of the new alpha?

I don't think they were defeated by the GH, so they currently don't think they've submitted. Therefore, it may not be required of them to stay under the GH's control and escaping that is what they had been planning to do.

Humanity shouldn't trust them to stay submitted, though. A cruiser left as picket in the system can ensure that they do, though.


That depends on what the species is like--plenty of animals will try to displace the alpha unless it keeps proving it's fitness to lead.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:18 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Humanity shouldn't trust them to stay submitted, though. A cruiser left as picket in the system can ensure that they do, though.


That depends on what the species is like--plenty of animals will try to displace the alpha unless it keeps proving it's fitness to lead.


Quite agreed. Hence the suggestion to leave a cruiser to keep them honest. Keep proving to them that Humanity is the New Alpha.
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Re: Spoilers! Be warned ...So, what happens next?
Post by ecortez   » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:43 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Quite agreed. Hence the suggestion to leave a cruiser to keep them honest. Keep proving to them that Humanity is the New Alpha.


This would certainly be in line with the Shongairi as canines. But we don't know how much of their society is a manifestation of their hard wired instincts and how much is purely cultural (i.e. open to change). There are plenty of warrior cultures in human history that were equally brutal, some even more so, yet all human societies aren't like that.

Going forward it'll be interesting to see whether less rapidly progressing races can acquire the innovation bug from association with humanity. For several hundred thousand years after homo sapiens appeared, we too were stuck at a very basic technological level. The time of large scale civilization and scientific advance occupies only the last few thousand years. A small sliver of our total existence. So ... what changed? Maybe in the context of these books it was the intervention of the mysterious Fifth Race.

Something (probably commitment to technological stagnation) caused a falling out between them and the other GH founding races. Either they left for greener pastures, or the others wiped them out. In the latter case maybe the Hegemony isn't quite as ignorant of higher developments like humanity's improved hyperdrive as one might hope. Perhaps they have the means to defeat Earth after all! Only putting together a large enough alliance against them, and perhaps discovering a few tricks they never saw from their old friends, could propel us to victory.

There's definitely more going on than we've seen so far. Just having humans build a fleet of superior ships and conquer the GH wouldn't make for a very interesting story.
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