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On Hate Speech

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Re: On Hate Speech
Post by Michael Everett   » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:32 pm

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Dohboy wrote:It's a simple question. Do you wish to fight them with words? Or do you wish to fight them with bayonet and bullets?

Babylon 5 said it best.
"Never throw the first punch, but always throw the last."

Anyone who calls for violence to be the first resort is, in my opinion, undeserving of respect. Defending oneself and those who rely on you is noble, striking out at others not so.
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Re: On Hate Speech
Post by The E   » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:54 am

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Michael Everett wrote:Anyone who calls for violence to be the first resort is, in my opinion, undeserving of respect. Defending oneself and those who rely on you is noble, striking out at others not so.


Which is fine and all, but ... how long would you say it's appropriate for a group with legitimate grievances to ask for redress politely before you would allow them the right to act with violence, even if it is a mild form of violence like protesting?
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Re: On Hate Speech
Post by Daryl   » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:59 am

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Simple question with a complex answer.
Every situation is different, with various levels of importance, different urgency levels, and often asymmetric levels of participants.
Unless it puts you at risk you should always ask first. Not advisable in dictatorships.
Otherwise if polite requests are ignored, then non violent protests are perfectly ethical.
Civil disobedience is the next level. Climate protesters here have evolved some complex tricks, like supergluing two protester's hands together, then encasing their arms in quick setting concrete drums before dropping them onto busy streets. Difficult to shift without putting them at risk.
Violence can be ethical. I would like to think that I would have used a rifle if I had been in a Jewish ghetto in Germany in the late 1930s.


The E wrote:
Michael Everett wrote:Anyone who calls for violence to be the first resort is, in my opinion, undeserving of respect. Defending oneself and those who rely on you is noble, striking out at others not so.


Which is fine and all, but ... how long would you say it's appropriate for a group with legitimate grievances to ask for redress politely before you would allow them the right to act with violence, even if it is a mild form of violence like protesting?
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Re: On Hate Speech
Post by The E   » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:10 am

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Daryl wrote:Simple question with a complex answer.
Every situation is different, with various levels of importance, different urgency levels, and often asymmetric levels of participants.


Yes, exactly!

There's a MLK quote about Peace being not the absence of strife, but the presence of justice. That's what I think about when I see people all aghast that BLM turned to rioting in places (to pick a completely random example): It is essentially impossible for an outsider to accurately tell if a given protest is an unwarranted escalation or a legitimate way to achieve goals (and no: Telling people that violence can never be the answer is completely ahistorical bullshit. Relying on the powerful to relent against peaceful protests can only work if the powerful are ready to be convinced, which may never happen; Sometimes it is absolutely necessary to grab power by force to get justice).

What I'm getting at is that it is easy for those of us privileged enough to not be victim of racial or class violence to cry foul when those victims turn to violence when their pleads are being ignored or dismissed.
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Re: On Hate Speech
Post by Joat42   » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:07 am

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The E wrote:What I'm getting at is that it is easy for those of us privileged enough to not be victim of racial or class violence to cry foul when those victims turn to violence when their pleads are being ignored or dismissed.

I've seen some "people" arguing that the BLM-protests where anti-white protests. I just have to wonder what goes on in their heads when they equate asking for equal treatment and opportunity is anti-white.

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