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Baen Bar closed down.

For anyone who might want to have a side conversation...you're welcome here!
Re: Baen Bar closed down.
Post by The E   » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:02 am

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Dilandu wrote:And? Peoples also talked themselves into a frenzy about "Russian imvolvement" and invented stories about "Russia pays bounties for American soldiers". This stuff does have INTERNATIONAL consequences, but for some reason you are not arguing that promoters of said ideas must be shut up until they produce clear, undisputable evidences?


Disinformation and propaganda are, as you say, global problems. Does that mean that we can only address them globally?
I don't think so. I think there's value to look at a community (or parts of a community) and the discussions happening in it and checking if they're still recognizably part of reality and raising an alarm if they aren't.

It seems to me that you're being incredibly fatalistic here. Your line of argumentation seems to imply that you believe that, if disinformation can't be stopped on the international scale, why should we strive to stop it on a scale that we can actually affect.
I disagree there, obviously. I think that, when you see someone leaving consensus reality, it's a good idea to try and drag them back, and that that's one of the duties that a community manager or moderator has.

That mass media and journalists must be silenced, not stir the public opinion against other nation working on rumors?


Why would I talk about that in a topic about the forums associated with US SF/F publisher Baen? Like, this topic here is fundamentally about community management in my view. How does an entity like Baen curate their community in ways that reflect its values, that (to me anyway) is the interesting question here; This, to my mind, has little if anything to do with journalistic ethics and malpractice. Not that that isn't a relevant topic of discussion by itself, it totally is, but I am not sure it's a relevant topic here, in this thread.

(waiting for "IT IS DIFFERENT!!! line...)


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Re: Baen Bar closed down.
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:21 am

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The E wrote:
Disinformation and propaganda are, as you say, global problems. Does that mean that we can only address them globally?
I don't think so. I think there's value to look at a community (or parts of a community) and the discussions happening in it and checking if they're still recognizably part of reality and raising an alarm if they aren't.


So essentially you are telling that peoples who could do A LOT of damage - and actually done it on international level - should not be silenced because telling press to shut up is against the freedom of speech. But on the other hands, peoples who only potentially may do SOME damage must be silenced, because they are easier to reach.

It sounds like "yeah, there is maniac serial killer on the loose, but apprehending him would be too troublesome, so we instead would went for a pickpocketer and call it a day"

It seems to me that you're being incredibly fatalistic here. Your line of argumentation seems to imply that you believe that, if disinformation can't be stopped on the international scale, why should we strive to stop it on a scale that we can actually affect.


And you seems to me as fairly hypocritic, arguing for presecuting those who you didn't like, but against those who you do like.

Okay, simpler argument: why Black Lives Matter movement isn't routed yet? Why its not being tajen down, why its propaganda is not removed, why its supporters aren't facing charges? They instigated riots, they destroyed property, they caused at least some killings. Why you are not arguing to immediately going after them?


That mass media and journalists must be silenced, not
Why would I talk about that in a topic about the forums associated with US SF/F publisher Baen? Like, this topic here is fundamentally about community management in my view. How does an entity like Baen curate their community in ways that reflect its values, that (to me anyway) is the interesting question here; This, to my mind, has little if anything to do with journalistic ethics and malpractice. Not that that isn't a relevant topic of discussion by itself, it totally is, but I am not sure it's a relevant topic here, in this thread.


For my point of view, you are trying to justify the attempt of obscure writer (Sanford) to boost its own popularity by making mountains out of molehills, by using the political agenda as showel. Moles are not amused.
------------------------------

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Re: Baen Bar closed down.
Post by clancy688   » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:41 am

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Dilandu wrote:For my point of view, you are trying to justify the attempt of obscure writer (Sanford) to boost its own popularity by making mountains out of molehills, by using the political agenda as showel. Moles are not amused.


Even if (and that's a big frigging if) he'd have written this for his own personal advancement, then this still doesn't invalidate the facts he presented, or does it?

All I'm reading from you is:
- Downplaying (I.e. "These yahoos are too stupid to organize an orgy in a brothel, and you expect them to be able to plot an insurrection? Pleeease...")
- Fatalism (I.e. "So what? Shit happens, preventing it is pointless, so why even try?")
- Whataboutism (I.e. "But look at what the other people are doing, too!") and
- Slander (I.e. "There's no way he's written that piece out of the goodness of his heart, he simply must have nefarious reasons.")
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Re: Baen Bar closed down.
Post by The E   » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:51 am

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Dilandu wrote:So essentially you are telling that peoples who could do A LOT of damage - and actually done it on international level - should not be silenced because telling press to shut up is against the freedom of speech. But on the other hands, peoples who only potentially may do SOME damage must be silenced, because they are easier to reach.


Nope, I'm not. This is you, again, reading things into what I wrote that just plain aren't there. I have offered no opinion on how disinformation campaigns should be dealt with by journalists and "the media" here, as I do not think that this thread is the right place for that discussion.

It sounds like "yeah, there is maniac serial killer on the loose, but apprehending him would be too troublesome, so we instead would went for a pickpocketer and call it a day"


Again, nope, you're on a completely different track of discussion than me. I'm saying "If someone criticizes your community and the way you run it, maybe it's a good idea to attempt to listen to them and see if they have a point", you're saying "but what about journalists calling russia bad though". These are different topics.

And you seems to me as fairly hypocritic, arguing for presecuting those who you didn't like, but against those who you do like.


I am? Where? Please point out, with citations, where I did that. Whether or not I like a given viewpoint doesn't matter here; The question is "does Baen's Bar reflect Baen's values and, if not, does its moderation need to change?" I agree with Sanford that it doesn't and that moderation does need to change. If people disagree, that's fine by me.

Okay, simpler argument: why Black Lives Matter movement isn't routed yet? Why its not being tajen down, why its propaganda is not removed, why its supporters aren't facing charges? They instigated riots, they destroyed property, they caused at least some killings. Why you are not arguing to immediately going after them?


Why would I do that in this thread?

For my point of view, you are trying to justify the attempt of obscure writer (Sanford) to boost its own popularity by making mountains out of molehills, by using the political agenda as showel. Moles are not amused.


I don't care about Sanford or his popularity (or lack thereof). I think he raises interesting questions that need to be answered in one way or another and that I have opinions on.
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Re: Baen Bar closed down.
Post by Joat42   » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:54 am

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Dilandu wrote:With all respect, but as long as they are staying within THEIR community, they have right to fill their community with those who they liked. We could agree, that it may not be the most practical way of doing buisness, but while it is not practical to hammer a nail using microscope, as long as its their microscope, you could not accuse them of doing so.

I may even agree, that communities with, say, "toxic" atmosphere validate more outside attention to their activity (i.e. that they are by definition more suspicious), but as long as they done nothing actually wrong or illegal - and collective masturbation on militia fantasy is not illegal - it could not be a reason to intervention.

If Baen is happy to have that kind of community on their forum, they also have to own the consequences of it. If they don't want to be associated with that community, they have to do something about it. It's a binary choice, allow toxic behavior to flourish or moderate it away.

---
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Re: Baen Bar closed down.
Post by ZVar   » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:55 pm

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Dilandu wrote:Oh please, BLM riots also caused death and destruction, but for "some" reasons there is no massive sites closure or something for their support.


And what forum was there huge BLM riot organization at? Now which one were there that didn't moderate the violence and delete (err. cancel) it?
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Re: Baen Bar closed down.
Post by Donnachaidh   » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:19 pm

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What context of free speech are we talking about? The way it is legally constructed in the US, which is "Congress shall make not law...abridging the freedom of speech..." where Congress has been determined to mean any level of government or government employee with some exceptions such as inciting violence? Or as a more general freedom to say whatever?

Either way, how is a private entity choosing not to host someone's speech that they disagree with a violation of free speech? Wouldn't forcing that entity to host content they disagree with violate their free speech? How is people saying they will choose not to do business with an entity or person who (at least appears) to tolerate something that those people find offensive violating free speech?

It appears to me that Baen Books choose to put their forum on a hiatus because they determined that their business would be harmed by the appearance that Baen Books agrees with the content that Sanford's article claims is on Baen's forum because some number of people would choose not to purchase their products or it would cause some other businesses to no longer do business with Baen.
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Re: Baen Bar closed down.
Post by Michael Everett   » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:15 pm

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Um, given how heated this conversation is showing signs of becoming, would it be appropriate to move it across to the Politics forum?

After all, free speech is very important in politics... except places where the politicians are in control rather than reflecting the will of the people. In those places, free speech is treasonous...
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Re: Baen Bar closed down.
Post by Joat42   » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:54 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:Um, given how heated this conversation is showing signs of becoming, would it be appropriate to move it across to the Politics forum?

I was wondering the same thing.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Baen Bar closed down.
Post by The E   » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:05 am

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Aaaand the Bar's back up.

Toni Weisskopf made a post that the allegations were looked into and that nothing was found.... And yet. In the same post where she tells everyone that nothing is wrong and that nothing was wrong, she also announces that:
* The Bar will no longer be open to everyone, but will require a proof of purchase of a Baen book to access
* Baen is handing off ownership of the Bar to a company called SFF Forums, which while technically separate from Baen is still run by Toni Weisskopf
* The moderation team has been expanded and there is a promise that the existing rules will be enforced more stringently
* Toni Weisskopf explicitly calls out "attempts to organize violence" as something that will be strictly forbidden

That's a whole lot of smoke for something that wasn't burning, isn't it.
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