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The World Has 42 +/- years left then the well runs dry

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Re: The World Has 42 +/- years left then the well runs dry
Post by Joat42   » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:43 pm

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Relax wrote:Coal/Gas get zero tax breaks, if they did, the whole greenie world would scream their names. They do not as they cannot do so as they do not exist. Wind Solar certainly get production tax incentives.

Are you stating as a fact that coal/gas doesn't get ANY tax breaks at all? Funny that, Colorado for example is wrestling with their budget due to the tax credits given to oil and gas companies there. Look to any state near the gulf and you'll see that oil and gas companies are getting tax breaks or credits.

Relax wrote:LCOE is a nice fiction currently as wind/solar offload all of their variability costs onto NG, Coal, transmission of said energy as well in all analysis and they are still subtracting cost of tax production credits in their analysis. And all this assuming the current length of life is valid. So far we know that their old length of life claims are 100% false. Not one single Turbine type has lasted on average more than 15 years, let alone the claimed 30 of today in their LCOE. WHy? Wind, rain destroy the leading edges of the wind turbines and the gearboxes, main thrust bearings die about this time. Is anything different today? NO other than maybe the main bearings are better, but they have also gotten much larger and are not longevity tested.

Hell, some wind turbine locations are going through blades in less than 10 years. Is this in their LCOE? Hell no.

SO, no, whatever LCOE number you are using(EIA is my guess) it is an obvious fabricated lie for political purposes.

You do know that your argument above cost and length of life makes some flawed presumptions? I'll leave it up to you to find the flaws but I don't think you will.

Also, you use the word lie a bit freely. It's like the story about the man complaining that everyone he met was an asshole.

---
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Re: The World Has 42 +/- years left then the well runs dry
Post by Relax   » Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:07 am

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Joat42 wrote:
Relax wrote:Coal/Gas get zero tax breaks, if they did, the whole greenie world would scream their names. They do not as they cannot do so as they do not exist. Wind Solar certainly get production tax incentives.

Are you stating as a fact that coal/gas doesn't get ANY tax breaks at all? Funny that, Colorado for example is wrestling with their budget due to the tax credits given to oil and gas companies there. Look to any state near the gulf and you'll see that oil and gas companies are getting tax breaks or credits.

I know English is your 2nd language but your statements are absurd.

Colorado is getting no income taxes from oil/gas companies this year because the companies are not making a PROFIT. The property mineral rights owners still pay the income taxes.

Probably the taxes you are talking about are PRODUCTION taxes per barrel, where the state just arbitrarily reaches in and decides that THEY will receive 'x' value, per barrel produced irregardless if the company producing said barrel is making a profit. This is not a subsidy, this is pretty much outright theft by the local government. No one would put up with this if you were making cars, water heaters, etc. This on top of the fact O&G companies already pay HIGHER tax rates than everyone else(zero). That is no subsidy, that is a penalty.

Wind/Solar receive $$$ on top of the cost sold per kWh sold... I believe this year it is ~1c/kWh in the USA, Or they can choose to write off a high percentage of their building expenses to begin with. And this is on every single kWh they produce irregardless if anyone buys the power and uses it... :lol: :shock: :o :D O&G do not get this, they get the opposite, and YOU call them subsidies? Why? Because scum in the local tax localities have become dependent on those tax revenues instead of other sources. They then bitch that their tax revenue is dropping when other states do not HAVE this revenue stream at all.

And sorry, it appears you do not know how LCOE is calculated by EIA. LCOE calcs have to pick a lifetime in years to base depreciation upon as this gives you the CAPITAL costs for payback. They also use 5 years for depreciation, thus get to write it off faster for lowered taxes unlike NG/Coal. And they get a production credit unlike coal,ng. The EIA LCOE also base their maintenance costs on first 5 years when maintenance is ~zero instead of 10 years when O&M costs soar. By year 15 over half the wind turbines will be completely dysfunctional and need to be torn down. 30 years later, Nat gas/coal still going 100% Okay. Does not include transmission either. Cost of Coal, NG does, as it is based right next to the power need and cost of transportation is included in the fuel cost.
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Re: The World Has 42 +/- years left then the well runs dry
Post by Daryl   » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:54 am

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Relax, a personal statement first. I spent seven miserable years in a church boarding school starting 60 years ago. For the first 5.5 years I was remorsefully bullied. Big for my age, always class Dux, and socially awkward. Then eighteen months before I left I freaked and put my tormentors into hospital. Spent the rest of my time there stamping on bullying. Later on learnt multiple martial arts, never again. Since then it has aided my career as I wanted to get to the top to sort out bullies.
Your whole approach is that of a bully. Insult and try to intimidate. My response through the keyboard is for you to go elsewhere and fornicate. I won't be intimidated, but neither will I sink to your level.

As I have already said, moderation in all things. I have stated that for the foreseeable future we will need a hybrid system, with some fossil fuel in the mix. My brother in law is an executive in a HELE coal power station, so my sister's welfare depends on him keeping his job.
It isn't difficult with Google to check out my figures and statements. Solar and wind are cheaper per unit. Sure there is a problem with storage, and I have already detailed how that is being addressed.
The European experience with turbines is to expect a 30 year average life, with some now 45 years on. I would expect that with experience today's will last longer again.
You throw out emotive words like scum to describe decent men and women working hard to ensure continuity of supply.
As to "30 years later, Nat gas/coal still going 100%", plain untrue. Gas isn't too bad but modern gas turbines are still higher maintenance than wind as you would expect. Similar generators to wind, but an intensely hot power source will erode more quickly than a simple set of blades.
Coal power is quite maintenance intensive. The generators that are in common with wind, hydro and gas stations are the most reliable component. However coal furnaces and boilers fail often and require both constant maintenance and regular complete tear downs and rebuilds. Our heatwaves always see thermal fossil fuel plants breaking down, so our national grid is more and more dependent on renewables as the climate gets hotter.
Meanwhile the sheep graze under the solar panels and cattle under the wind turbines. Seen all of these options, and know which are the future.
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Re: The World Has 42 +/- years left then the well runs dry
Post by Joat42   » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:31 am

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Relax wrote:
Joat42 wrote:Are you stating as a fact that coal/gas doesn't get ANY tax breaks at all? Funny that, Colorado for example is wrestling with their budget due to the tax credits given to oil and gas companies there. Look to any state near the gulf and you'll see that oil and gas companies are getting tax breaks or credits.

I know English is your 2nd language but your statements are absurd.

Colorado is getting no income taxes from oil/gas companies this year because the companies are not making a PROFIT. The property mineral rights owners still pay the income taxes.

English is certainly my 2nd language - but that doesn't mean I see how you suddenly moved the goal-post. A tax break is still a tax break regardless if a business is making money or not.

---
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Re: The World Has 42 +/- years left then the well runs dry
Post by Relax   » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:11 pm

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Joat42 wrote:English is certainly my 2nd language - but that doesn't mean I see how you suddenly moved the goal-post. A tax break is still a tax break regardless if a business is making money or not.

So in your world, if you produce a car, but make no profit, you owe no taxes... We agree.

But, if you dig something out of the ground to make things like cars, but make no profit, you owe taxes, at some arbitrary amount to fit your narrative. It doesn't matter the tax rate, whatever the rate, it is obviously too low and a subsidy... :roll:
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Re: The World Has 42 +/- years left then the well runs dry
Post by Joat42   » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:04 am

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Relax wrote:
Joat42 wrote:English is certainly my 2nd language - but that doesn't mean I see how you suddenly moved the goal-post. A tax break is still a tax break regardless if a business is making money or not.

So in your world, if you produce a car, but make no profit, you owe no taxes... We agree.

But, if you dig something out of the ground to make things like cars, but make no profit, you owe taxes, at some arbitrary amount to fit your narrative. It doesn't matter the tax rate, whatever the rate, it is obviously too low and a subsidy... :roll:

Perhaps you should go an read up on how tax breaks and tax credits work before continuing this discussion, since you somehow believe that if you don't make a profit you don't pay tax and the tax breaks and credits no longer apply.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: The World Has 42 +/- years left then the well runs dry
Post by Relax   » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:52 pm

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Joat42 wrote:Perhaps you should go an read up on how tax breaks and tax credits work before continuing this discussion, since you somehow believe that if you don't make a profit you don't pay tax and the tax breaks and credits no longer apply.

Still waiting for this supposed tax break to be named. Been asking everyone for many years now, and no one can tell me what it is, and no one can name it in any documentary, but everyone can name them for solar/wind. Odd huh?
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Re: The World Has 42 +/- years left then the well runs dry
Post by Joat42   » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:56 am

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Relax wrote:
Joat42 wrote:Perhaps you should go an read up on how tax breaks and tax credits work before continuing this discussion, since you somehow believe that if you don't make a profit you don't pay tax and the tax breaks and credits no longer apply.

Still waiting for this supposed tax break to be named. Been asking everyone for many years now, and no one can tell me what it is, and no one can name it in any documentary, but everyone can name them for solar/wind. Odd huh?

I'll ask again: Do you believe if a company doesn't make a profit they don't pay taxes either?

Btw, go and read up on the Tax Cut and Jobs Act of 2017 and see what happened to the tax-rates for Oil and Gas companies.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: The World Has 42 +/- years left then the well runs dry
Post by Relax   » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:14 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
Relax wrote:Still waiting for this supposed tax break to be named. Been asking everyone for many years now, and no one can tell me what it is, and no one can name it in any documentary, but everyone can name them for solar/wind. Odd huh?

I'll ask again: Do you believe if a company doesn't make a profit they don't pay taxes either?

Btw, go and read up on the Tax Cut and Jobs Act of 2017 and see what happened to the tax-rates for Oil and Gas companies.

Still waiting for you to name the tax subsidy = You can't.

As for your question: they don't if no profit. What Screwed up crap world do you live in? Clearly you have never run a business before. No profit, no taxes.

Sales taxes are paid by the buyer, not the manufacturer if that is what you are whining about. Sales tax rates vary depending on the product.

Only in Natural resources(OIl/Gas) is the PRODUCER required to pay a production tax after a certain amount in conjunction with a profit tax.

No one making an engine, a car, an electric motor pays production taxes. NO ONE.

GO start a business then get back to me about paying taxes.

What are you going to whine about next? Property taxes? Those are paid by the lease owner :roll:
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Re: The World Has 42 +/- years left then the well runs dry
Post by Joat42   » Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:52 am

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Relax wrote:Still waiting for you to name the tax subsidy = You can't.

I just did, Tax Cut and Jobs Act of 2017. Perhaps you don't know this, but tax subsidy is just a general term encompassing tax breaks, tax credits and other forms of tax benefits/incentives. Can you with a straight face say that the oil and gas industry don't receive any tax benefits at all?

Lets just list some that actually exists:
  • Federal marginal well tax credit
  • Federal enhanced oil recovery credit
  • Texas margin tax exclusion & severance tax incentives
  • California enhanced oil recovery credit
  • Oklahoma gross production tax exemption
  • North Dakota oil extraction tax rate reductions and incentives
  • Louisiana severance tax reduction and incentives
  • New Mexico severance tax exemptions and incentives

Relax wrote:As for your question: they don't if no profit. What Screwed up crap world do you live in? Clearly you have never run a business before. No profit, no taxes.

Okay, so the only time a company pay taxes is when they make a profit. Got it. Because that is what you originally asserted.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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