Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists

cthia wrote:I don't understand. How would that work? During the time period under discussion, all of the changes had to be selected before birth. As Allison promised Emily to ensure her unborn child would regenerate. Mesa didn't have the ability to make genetic alterations after birth. I don't think the Alignment is at that point yet either. After all, it is genetic. That is why they have to destroy the bad fruit by culling, not pruning, entire lines.

One cannot ask to be born with something before being born. And requesting that for an unborn child should still be considered as slavery.

It might not, then. We don't know when biosculpting was invented. It doesn't sound like a new technology (with too much risk), but we have no idea how old it would be. I suspect it wasn't available to that level, or Leonard Detweiler would have had no market for Manpower's products. He'd have had to compete on price or long-term overhead costs, and that doesn't sound feasible. But as we discussed, the economics of genetic slavery don't make sense at all.

Anyway, your point about culling is a good evidence that they don't perform genetic modifications after birth, meaning that genetic therapy seems not to be available or sufficient to do the job. Biosculpting is probably little more than literally skin-deep.

cthia wrote:I don't understand. How would that work? During the time period under discussion, all of the changes had to be selected before birth. As Allison promised Emily to ensure her unborn child would regenerate. Mesa didn't have the ability to make genetic alterations after birth. I don't think the Alignment is at that point yet either. After all, it is genetic. That is why they have to destroy the bad fruit by culling, not pruning, entire lines.

One cannot ask to be born with something before being born. And requesting that for an unborn child should still be considered as slavery.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It might not, then. We don't know when biosculpting was invented. It doesn't sound like a new technology (with too much risk), but we have no idea how old it would be. I suspect it wasn't available to that level, or Leonard Detweiler would have had no market for Manpower's products. He'd have had to compete on price or long-term overhead costs, and that doesn't sound feasible. But as we discussed, the economics of genetic slavery don't make sense at all.

Anyway, your point about culling is a good evidence that they don't perform genetic modifications after birth, meaning that genetic therapy seems not to be available or sufficient to do the job. Biosculpting is probably little more than literally skin-deep.

We see several examples of bio-sculpting in the books; consider Berry Zilwicki and Princess Ruth in Crown of Slaves having their bodies molded so they could change places, like in The Prince and the Pauper. Basically it is a high tech version of plastic surgery using nanites instead of plastic, that can include skeleton changes.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I don't understand. How would that work? During the time period under discussion, all of the changes had to be selected before birth. As Allison promised Emily to ensure her unborn child would regenerate. Mesa didn't have the ability to make genetic alterations after birth. I don't think the Alignment is at that point yet either. After all, it is genetic. That is why they have to destroy the bad fruit by culling, not pruning, entire lines.

One cannot ask to be born with something before being born. And requesting that for an unborn child should still be considered as slavery.

It might not, then. We don't know when biosculpting was invented. It doesn't sound like a new technology (with too much risk), but we have no idea how old it would be. I suspect it wasn't available to that level, or Leonard Detweiler would have had no market for Manpower's products. He'd have had to compete on price or long-term overhead costs, and that doesn't sound feasible. But as we discussed, the economics of genetic slavery don't make sense at all.

Anyway, your point about culling is a good evidence that they don't perform genetic modifications after birth, meaning that genetic therapy seems not to be available or sufficient to do the job. Biosculpting is probably little more than literally skin-deep.

We had this discussion about biosculpting in your own thread She shot him with her finger.

Biosculpting is little more than cosmetic augmentation. Think of it as a futuristic high tech plastic surgery.

Ah, tlb beat me to the punch.

cthia wrote:Jeremy X might have had the easiest job of any slave. He wasn't happy, because I maintained that the MA can condition the body, but there is only so much they can do with the mind. Or it becomes mind control. Human nature doesn't like being told what to do. Being "created to do" is far too unacceptable.

tlb wrote:He is also the perfect example of someone who became all that he could be, despite having been a slave.

cthia wrote:Can we say that without being presumptuous? Certainly he rose above his predicament, but would he have become even more and done even greater things?

How much time was left on his clock after he escaped? He doesn't have prolong either, does he?

It is not presumptuous to list all the things that he has done as an ex-slave and say that it would be a very rare person that could do more. Would he have had the drive and talent, if he had just been an average man on the street?

No, he does not have prolong; but is still true of many people. Manticore is making it a priority to get it to all the people in the Talbott Quadrant. Pre-alliance Grayson did not have it either.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Jeremy X might have had the easiest job of any slave. He wasn't happy, because I maintained that the MA can condition the body, but there is only so much they can do with the mind. Or it becomes mind control. Human nature doesn't like being told what to do. Being "created to do" is far too unacceptable.

tlb wrote:He is also the perfect example of someone who became all that he could be, despite having been a slave.

cthia wrote:Can we say that without being presumptuous? Certainly he rose above his predicament, but would he have become even more and done even greater things?

How much time was left on his clock after he escaped? He doesn't have prolong either, does he?

It is not presumptuous to list all the things that he has done as an ex-slave and say that it would be a very rare person that could do more. Would he have had the drive and talent, if he had just been an average man on the street?

No, he does not have prolong; but is still true of many people. Manticore is making it a priority to get it to all the people in the Talbott Quadrant. Pre-alliance Grayson did not have it either.

All true, and your argument is compelling.

But I still hesitate to, essentially, tell Jeremy X, "Relax, the Alignment did you a favor. Your accomplishments would have been a pale comparison to what they are now."

tlb wrote:It is not presumptuous to list all the things that he has done as an ex-slave and say that it would be a very rare person that could do more. Would he have had the drive and talent, if he had just been an average man on the street?

No, he does not have prolong; but is still true of many people. Manticore is making it a priority to get it to all the people in the Talbott Quadrant. Pre-alliance Grayson did not have it either.

cthia wrote:All true, and your argument is compelling.

But I still hesitate to, essentially, tell Jeremy X, "Relax, the Alignment did you a favor. Your accomplishments would have been a pale comparison to what they are now."

No reason to do that, but one could easily say that what he has done as an ex-slave is something that anyone could be proud of. Being among the founders of a planet dedicated to freedom for ex-slaves, along with Professor W.E.B. Du Havel and Queen Berry, is something that he could only have done as the leader of the Audubon Ballroom.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:It is not presumptuous to list all the things that he has done as an ex-slave and say that it would be a very rare person that could do more. Would he have had the drive and talent, if he had just been an average man on the street?

No, he does not have prolong; but is still true of many people. Manticore is making it a priority to get it to all the people in the Talbott Quadrant. Pre-alliance Grayson did not have it either.

cthia wrote:All true, and your argument is compelling.

But I still hesitate to, essentially, tell Jeremy X, "Relax, the Alignment did you a favor. Your accomplishments would have been a pale comparison to what they are now."

No reason to do that, but one could easily say that what he has done as an ex-slave is something that anyone could be proud of. Being among the founders of a planet dedicated to freedom for ex-slaves, along with Professor W.E.B. Du Havel and Queen Berry, is something that he could only have done as the leader of the Audubon Ballroom.

All so true too. But remember how I can so easily put myself in a character's shoes? So says a few of my teachers.

"Well, none of which would have been necessary had it not been for the Alignment raising and selling human livestock."

And, let's be honest, when he escaped he didn't have a choice but to gain some sort of power so that he could continue breathing. Would he have been able to stay alive without the Ballroom?

tlb wrote:We see several examples of bio-sculpting in the books; consider Berry Zilwicki and Princess Ruth in Crown of Slaves having their bodies molded so they could change places, like in The Prince and the Pauper. Basically it is a high tech version of plastic surgery using nanites instead of plastic, that can include skeleton changes.

That sounds like a mechanical, almost brute-force approach: having the nanites do the work.

A gene therapy would update the genetic material so the body would do it on its own... but I don't think that's just how biology works. Do the bones get cell replenishment or are they literally calcified? I suppose you could code some genes to start doing just that, but it carries a large risk of getting out of control and producing a very, very aggressive cancer.

And it might also be both slower and harder to reverse. If you want to change your eye or hair colour, it's probably easier to have the nanites insert pigmentation (or remove, as the case may be) than to force the cells in the iris or the follicles to do something specific. Once you no longer want that, the nanites simply stop doing their work and the body reverses to normal over a period of time. Want a tanned body for Summer? Eat a pill of nanites and melanin.

tlb wrote:No reason to do that, but one could easily say that what he has done as an ex-slave is something that anyone could be proud of. Being among the founders of a planet dedicated to freedom for ex-slaves, along with Professor W.E.B. Du Havel and Queen Berry, is something that he could only have done as the leader of the Audubon Ballroom.

He might have still been the leader of the Ballroom if he hadn't been born a slave. Unlikely, but it's possible. And there are other ways to contribute, like Catherine Montaigne did/does.

But it's also possible that he might have been part of that founding without being the leader. Neither Thandi Palane nor Queen Berry herself were (officially) slaves, though they were probably the next thing to it, given their upbringing. Victor Cachat and Anton Zilwicki, on the other hand, were very far from being slaves. And Princess Ruth is, well, a princess of Manticore, though the fact that her mother was being held as a virtual slave on Masada is not just a coincidence, because it would have shaped her opinion of the subject.

cthia wrote:And, let's be honest, when he escaped he didn't have a choice but to gain some sort of power so that he could continue breathing. Would he have been able to stay alive without the Ballroom?

There are many places where an escaped slave can find exile and opportunity. Take the example of Hugh Arai, who became an operative in Beowulf's Biological Survey Corps. Paulo d'Arezzo's family found a place to live in Manticore; Ginny Usher in Haven, probably during the People's Republic days.

Heck, it's possible most of the RF member worlds would have welcomed escaped slaves.