Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 53 guests

Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:05 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:If "only the strong survive" then, unlike the Scrags, what about "the strong and truly highly intelligent?"

tlb wrote:Seems to me that the "Ukrainian super soldier" was given an intelligence boost, but as pointed out in the books a boost in intelligence often results in a boost in aggression. The problem with the "Scrags" is not that they were unintelligent, but that they were convinced of their superiority and so "too cool for school". Even otherwise intelligent people can be victims of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Those that emigrate to Torch will be forced to learn some humility and will end up applying their advantages.

cthia wrote:Can you put your finger on the appropriate textev? I think I accurately recall them portrayed - at the very least - as not being the sharpest styli in the box.

At any rate they do NOT approach being anywhere near "highly intelligent" like Alphas are.

Aside:
Every time I hear that "highly intelligent" people have "a boost in aggression" I think of Honor Harrington and my niece. Neither of which suffer fools. I think that a lot of highly intelligent people simply lack patience; they don't understand your disconnect.

When playing against my niece in chess, I oftentimes get, "Oh please, are you going to use THAT opening, again?"

But THAT opening is my favorite and strongest, against any other opponent. It is nothing but swiss cheese when facing her. But her attitude gets on my nerves sometimes. The little snot!

I think Sonja Hemphill suffers from the same defect. Beth definitely does too.

At any rate, I think your point about humility is spot on. I think the MA probably could apply a modification toward more humility, but I tend to think they would think that humility would be a liability.

From chapter 17 of Ashes of Victory:
"You and your father are direct descendants of the Meyerdahl Beta mod. I won't go into all the specifics, which wouldn't mean a great deal to you, anyway, but most of what it gave you is exactly what all the Meyerdahl recipients got: more efficient muscles, enhanced reaction speed, stronger bones, tougher cardiovascular and respiratory systems, and so on. But the Meyerdahl Betas also got what they used to call an 'IQ enhancer.' We've learned enough more about human intelligence since then that reputable geneticists refuse to tinker with it except under extraordinary conditions. For the most part, you can only enhance one aspect of the entire complex of attributes we think of as 'intelligence' at the expense of other aspects. That isn't an absolute, but it works as a rule of thumb, and it's one reason I never mentioned my research to you or your dad. There was no reason to—and the . . . less successful efforts at engineered intelligence were one reason Old Earth's Final War was as bad as it was. And one reason humanity in general turned so strongly against the entire concept of engineering human genes at all."
"I take it," Honor said very carefully, "that your research didn't indicate that we were one of those 'less successful efforts'?"
"Oh, heavens, no! In fact, the Meyerdahl Betas and the Wintons have quite a lot in common. I don't have as complete a degree of access to the Winton records, of course, but even from the incomplete data in the public files, it's obvious that whoever designed the Winton modification for Roger Winton's parents was remarkably successful. As was the team that put together the Meyerdahl Beta package. I'd like to say they succeeded because they were so good at their jobs, but I rather doubt that was the case, particularly in light of their relatively primitive understanding of just what they were tinkering with. I think that, as we geneticists like to put it when discussing the vast evolutionary sweep of upward human development, they lucked out.
"The really unsuccessful efforts, on the other hand, tended to show very high levels of aggressiveness, like the 'super soldiers' on Old Earth, and weed themselves out of the genotype. As a matter of fact, that aggressiveness was the most common nasty side effect of intelligence modification projects. Some of the recipients verged uncomfortably closely on sociopathic personalities, without the sort of moral governors people need in a healthy society. And when you coupled that with an awareness that they were designed to be (and usually were) quite a lot 'smarter,' at least in certain, specific ways, than the normals around them, they started acting like a pride of hexapumas quarreling over who should boss all those inferior normals about until they got around to picking out lunch."

Perhaps your thinking came from this quote (or another like it) from the short sory "From the Highlands":
"Good for you, lad," chuckled Usher. "Okay, Victor. Forget everything you may have heard. The fundamental thing you've got to understand about the Scrags is that they're a bunch of clowns." He waved a hand. "Oh, yeah, sure. Murderous clowns. Perfect physical specimens, bred and trained to be supreme warriors. Eat nails, can walk through walls, blah blah blah. The problem is, the morons believe it too. Which means they're as careless as five year olds, and never think to plan for the inevitable screw-ups. Which there always are, in any plan—much less one as elaborate as this scheme of Durkheim's. So they're going to foul up, somewhere along the line, and Durkheim's going to be scrambling to patch the holes. The problem is, since he organized this entire thing outside of SS channels, he doesn't have a back-up team in place and ready to go. He'll have to jury-rig one. Which is something you never want to do in a situation as"—another dry chuckle—"as 'fraught with danger,' as they say, as this one."

Which is not really saying the they are unintelligent, only careless because of their conceited belief in their own superiority.

It was probably a combination of both passages, since I recall both of them. But I was almost certain it was located in From the Highlands. So, mostly the second quote.

And you are right. It doesn't actually say they are not as smart, but smarter, which comes at a price. Actually, as I think about it, they are smarter but with less common sense, as a result of the issues that are "at the expense of."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:14 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Perhaps, but I really don't think his placement on the list would have changed. Do consider that even before he joined the Ballroom he was already quite vocal against the MA.

I think he is the sole escaped slave who didn't want to fly under the radar. Any other escaped slave didn't want to make any ripples, much less make any waves. Elaine Kormandorski certainly didn't dare make a ripple. She changed her identity so much she isn't sure what her original name is. LOL

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, he wasn't. Quite a few other leaders in the Audubon were known, like Saburo X.

It's a good question whether Jeremy was the first and thus got emulated by all the others, or whether he followed the example of someone else. I don't think that was said.

cthia wrote:I never questioned whether Jeremy is the first. I'm not saying I am right, but somehow storyline made me sure of it. And as a result his example paved the way for others. It gave them courage. A lot of loyalty is paid to the Alignment, not just because of the nanites, but because of fear.

Jeremy is to the MA as Beowulf is to the SL. Literally the straw that broke the camel's back. Or, the first crack in the dam.

That is why he is at the top of the list. In my opinion. And of course, because he is dangerous!

I do not believe that he was the "sole escaped slave who didn't want to fly under the radar", because the Ballroom was already in existence when he escaped. Also it is clear that he was on the Mesan kill list because of the Ballroom as there was almost no time between his escape and his joining the organization: in the fourth day of "From the Highlands":
And, within limits, it worked—usually. But not always, by any means. Certainly not in Jeremy's case. Within less than a week after his sale, he had made his escape. Eventually, he arrived on Terra, through one of the routes maintained by the Anti-Slavery League. Within a day of his arrival, he had joined the Audubon Ballroom, probably the most radical and certainly the most violence-prone group within the general umbrella of the anti-slavery movement. Then, following the custom of that underground movement—whose membership was exclusively restricted to ex-slaves—had renamed himself Jeremy X. Within a short time, he had risen to leadership in the Ballroom. Today, he was considered one of the most dangerous terrorists in the galaxy. Or, to many—herself included, when all was said and done, despite her disapproval of his tactics—one of its greatest freedom fighters.

Logically, I think you are right again, since the Ballroom is a fraternity of escaped slaves, and was in existence before Jeremy joined.

I probably got the feeling of him being the first true rebellious slave that didn't want to fly under the radar because he was so vocal in captivity. Not outwardly, but inwardly. Remember on Darius when the two naval officers were afraid to even think negative thoughts about the MA? Well, Jeremy never seemed to be afraid. But that isn't fair to the others because Jeremy was given more screen time.

Anyway, I recant that statement in its entirety.

And, of all of the slaves, he seems to have more of an axe to grind. Wasn't there a passage that praises Saburo X as the most dangerous slave, next to Jeremy?


Late edit:

Which still might place him at the top of the list because by nature he is the most dangerous. Which is also why he rose to the top. I suppose it is sort of a circular argument. I always thought it was ironic that he seemed to be the most angry at the MA with the biggest axe to grind, yet he was simply designed as simply entertainment. He was a jester, which is little more than a glorified clown. So, when put like that, I can see why he resented his design even more.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by tlb   » Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:58 am

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3854
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

cthia wrote:I probably got the feeling of him being the first true rebellious slave that didn't want to fly under the radar because he was so vocal in captivity. Not outwardly, but inwardly.

We NEVER see him in captivity, so I do not know what your source is for this.

Yes, he was extremely dangerous, as the talents which would make him an expert juggler, also serve to make him an expert shooter (probably with either hand). But the main thing is that he gets the most page space.

It is stated (jokingly) that the thing that made him angriest was being genetically unable to grow a beard.
Top
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:16 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I probably got the feeling of him being the first true rebellious slave that didn't want to fly under the radar because he was so vocal in captivity. Not outwardly, but inwardly.

We NEVER see him in captivity, so I do not know what your source is for this.

Yes, he was extremely dangerous, as the talents which would make him an expert juggler, also serve to make him an expert shooter (probably with either hand). But the main thing is that he gets the most page space.

It is stated (jokingly) that the thing that made him angriest was being genetically unable to grow a beard.


We never see Jeremy in captivity, like before he escapes? I am not disputing that, but I would have missed it, if it had been a question on Jeopardy.

I don't rightly recall the joke about the beard either. I certainly would enjoy rereading the entire series. But it is always a choice between forum participation and rereading the series. Time is really pinched for me nowadays.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by tlb   » Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:27 pm

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3854
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

cthia wrote:I don't rightly recall the joke about the beard either.

I did not get the beard comment completely correct; here it is in the fourth day of "From the Highlands":
But Jeremy X had no mustachios, nor any facial hair at all. That was because K-86b/273-1/5 had been genetically designed for a life as a house servant, and Manpower Inc.'s social psychologists and market experts had unanimously decreed that facial hair was unsuitable for such creatures. Jeremy had once told Cathy that he considered that Mesa's final and unforgivable crime. And the worst of it was—she hadn't been sure he was joking. Jeremy X joked about everything, after all; which didn't stop him from being as murderous as an avalanche.
Note that this describes him as a house servant which is imprecise, I believe that he is describes elsewhere as a juggler. In fact earlier in that section there is this text:
Anton held up the package anew. "Then I imagine this will tickle his fancy."
Cathy stared at the object in Anton's hand. Innocuous-looking thing, really. But she knew full well what would happen once Jeremy got his hands on it. Jeremy had come into the universe in one of Manpower Inc.'s breeding chambers on Mesa. K-86b/273-1/5, they had called him. The "K" referred to the basic genetic type—in Jeremy's case, someone bred to be a personal servant, just as Isaac's "V" denoted one of the technical combat breeds. The "-86b" referred to one of the multitude of slight variants within the general archetype. In Jeremy's case, the variant designed to provide clients with acrobatic entertainment—jugglers and the like. Court clowns, in essence. The number 273 referred to the "batch," and the 1/5 meant that Jeremy was the first of the quintuplets in that batch to be extracted from the breeding chamber.
Top
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:12 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't rightly recall the joke about the beard either.

I did not get the beard comment completely correct; here it is in the fourth day of "From the Highlands":
But Jeremy X had no mustachios, nor any facial hair at all. That was because K-86b/273-1/5 had been genetically designed for a life as a house servant, and Manpower Inc.'s social psychologists and market experts had unanimously decreed that facial hair was unsuitable for such creatures. Jeremy had once told Cathy that he considered that Mesa's final and unforgivable crime. And the worst of it was—she hadn't been sure he was joking. Jeremy X joked about everything, after all; which didn't stop him from being as murderous as an avalanche.
Note that this describes him as a house servant which is imprecise, I believe that he is describes elsewhere as a juggler. In fact earlier in that section there is this text:
Anton held up the package anew. "Then I imagine this will tickle his fancy."
Cathy stared at the object in Anton's hand. Innocuous-looking thing, really. But she knew full well what would happen once Jeremy got his hands on it. Jeremy had come into the universe in one of Manpower Inc.'s breeding chambers on Mesa. K-86b/273-1/5, they had called him. The "K" referred to the basic genetic type—in Jeremy's case, someone bred to be a personal servant, just as Isaac's "V" denoted one of the technical combat breeds. The "-86b" referred to one of the multitude of slight variants within the general archetype. In Jeremy's case, the variant designed to provide clients with acrobatic entertainment—jugglers and the like. Court clowns, in essence. The number 273 referred to the "batch," and the 1/5 meant that Jeremy was the first of the quintuplets in that batch to be extracted from the breeding chamber.

Imprecise, but perhaps not inaccurate. At the end of the day, he probably juggles mostly dishes and serving trays more than anything else, by the end of the day.

Your beard comment was pretty close enough.


I wonder if Jeremy had to dress up as a jester. Talk about a real hit to ones self esteem and self worth if he was created simply to juggle dishes, spoons, serving trays, knives and forks and then change attire and juggle balls, diablos, juggling clubs, torches, hats and bats while riding a unicyle. He probably felt like a very abused jackass of a clown riding a one-wheeled bicycle.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:17 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I think he is the sole escaped slave who didn't want to fly under the radar. Any other escaped slave didn't want to make any ripples, much less make any waves. Elaine Kormandorski certainly didn't dare make a ripple. She changed her identity so much she isn't sure what her original name is. LOL

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, he wasn't. Quite a few other leaders in the Audubon were known, like Saburo X.

It's a good question whether Jeremy was the first and thus got emulated by all the others, or whether he followed the example of someone else. I don't think that was said.

Also note that Elaine Kormandorski was hiding from the Audubon Ballroom, not from any Mesan kill list.

Technically she may have been hiding from both? Since one of Mesa's most dangerous toys developed a defect, escaped, and joined a bunch of ruthless killers, and had a bone to pick with her. LOL

At any rate, I would imagine that the MAlign would very much like to send the message that a lack of loyalty against them is ill-advised, so, every escaped slave is somewhere on the hit list.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by tlb   » Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:40 am

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3854
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

cthia wrote:I think he is the sole escaped slave who didn't want to fly under the radar. Any other escaped slave didn't want to make any ripples, much less make any waves. Elaine Kormandorski certainly didn't dare make a ripple. She changed her identity so much she isn't sure what her original name is. LOL

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, he wasn't. Quite a few other leaders in the Audubon were known, like Saburo X.

It's a good question whether Jeremy was the first and thus got emulated by all the others, or whether he followed the example of someone else. I don't think that was said.

tlb wrote:Also note that Elaine Kormandorski was hiding from the Audubon Ballroom, not from any Mesan kill list.

cthia wrote:Technically she may have been hiding from both? Since one of Mesa's most dangerous toys developed a defect, escaped, and joined a bunch of ruthless killers, and had a bone to pick with her. LOL

At any rate, I would imagine that the MAlign would very much like to send the message that a lack of loyalty against them is ill-advised, so, every escaped slave is somewhere on the hit list.

No, she was NOT hiding from a Mesan hit list, because her release from them was amply paid. However the Audubon Ballroom would very much like to find her since the payment was in the lives of others. Some background on a not very nice person, Crown of Slaves, chapter 14:
"She doesn't use that name any longer. She changed identities quite some time ago. Nowadays, she's known as Lady Georgia Young, formerly Georgia Sakristos."
Both girls knew that name, even if Du Havel didn't. Berry's eyes were wide; Ruth's, as wide as saucers.
"The wife of the Earl of North Hollow," Anton continued. "And the person who is considered by many people, me included, to be the gray eminence—at least when it comes to the dirty work—behind the current government of the Star Kingdom." He gave the princess a glance. "You can add her name to Kevin Usher's on that little list of the galaxy's top spies."
Ruth stroked her throat. "She controls North Hollow's black files, doesn't she?"
Anton nodded grimly. "Yes, she does. For all practical purposes, anyway. Those damned files assembled by the old Earl North Hollow, which have been used to blackmail more of Manticore's politicians than I want to think about. And, I don't have any doubt, were all that enabled High Ridge and his cohorts to contain the damage which should have ensued after Cathy and I released the files we brought back from the Manpower Incident on Terra."
"Who was 'Komandorski'?" asked Berry.
"Elaine Komandorski, in her heyday, was one of the most notorious criminals in Landing City—among the police, at any rate, even if her name wouldn't have meant anything to most Manticoran citizens. She was no crude armed robber, you understand. She specialized in things like industrial espionage, swindling; financial crimes, essentially. Except that the police are sure she was responsible for the murder of at least two people, and had something to do with the 'suicide' of yet another, in order to cover her tracks."
"But—" Berry shook her head. "If you could prove that the current Lady Young was—"
Anton shook his head. "Not good enough. Yes, with DNA evidence it could be proved that Georgia Young and Elaine Komandorski were one and the same person. But Komandorski was never convicted of anything, despite being the subject of an amazing number of police investigations. The cops are morally certain that she committed most of the crimes she was suspected of, but they couldn't prove it.
The facts of the payoff to Mesa, War of Honor, chapter 50:
"Meaning that once I discovered Elaine's existence," Zilwicki said, "I found myself wondering where she'd come from? I mean, she just . . . appeared one day, didn't she? And with such a substantial store of initial operating capital."
"What do you mean?" Georgia heard the quaver in her own voice, and cursed herself for it. But there was nothing she could do about it, any more than there was any way to prevent herself from paling.
"Meaning that I found your first biosculpt technician," Zilwicki told her very, very softly. "The one who rekeyed the genetic sequence on your tongue."
Georgia Young sat absolutely still, stunned into a realm far beyond mere disbelief. How? How could even someone with Anton Zilwicki's reputation have dug that deep? She'd buried that. Buried it where it would never see the light of day again. Buried it behind Elaine, willing even for someone to find her original criminal record because they would stop there, without going still deeper into who she'd been before Elaine.
"Of course," Zilwicki went on, "there's no law against having the number removed, is there? Most freed slaves don't have the resources to pay for it, but having it removed certainly isn't a crime. But he kept the record of the original number, Elaine. The number of a slave the Ballroom has been looking for for years. The slave who sold out an entire freighter full of escaped slaves in return for her own freedom and a half-million Solarian credits. Do you know what they intend to do with that slave when they find her?"
Georgia stared at him, her vocal cords frozen, and he smiled thinly.
"I've never been a slave. I don't pretend to understand what someone who has been one would be willing to do to gain her own freedom. And, by the same token, I don't pretend to stand in judgment on those who want to . . . discuss her actions with her. But I think, Elaine, that if I were her, I'd be far more concerned about the Ballroom than about anything the Star Kingdom's courts might want to discuss with her."
"What . . . what are you offering?" she asked hoarsely.
"Seventy-two standard-hours' headstart," he said bluntly. "I won't promise not to hand the evidence I've assembled over to the Ballroom. Cathy's 'butler' would never forgive us if I did. But Isaac will give me those three days, as well. He and Jeremy are reasonable men. They'll be unhappy with me, but they recognize the realities of horse-trading, and they know what sort of political stakes we're playing for here in the Star Kingdom. They'll settle for knowing where to start looking for you again."
Top
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:53 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

I still think, technically, since she was also hiding from the Galaxy's most feared murderer -- who happened to be engineered by the Mesans... and the fact that he had gone so rogue, and was so dangerous that even his creators are probably afraid of him -- then that distinction is a pitiful line. Accurate, but pitiful.

"You have bought your freedom. We won't kill you, but we engineered the most dangerous, the most accomplished killing machine the likes of which the galaxy has never seen. He is loose, and, he WILL kill you!"

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by tlb   » Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:04 am

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3854
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

cthia wrote:I still think, technically, since she was also hiding from the Galaxy's most feared murderer -- who happened to be engineered by the Mesans... and the fact that he had gone so rogue, and was so dangerous that even his creators are probably afraid of him -- then that distinction is a pitiful line. Accurate, but pitiful.

"You have bought your freedom. We won't kill you, but we engineered the most dangerous, the most accomplished killing machine the likes of which the galaxy has never seen. He is loose, and, he WILL kill you!"

If you want to believe that, fine; but it still means that she was not hiding from Mesa. Note that she was not just hiding from the Ballroom, but an additional inducement to flee was that Honor would take a deadly interest upon learning that she had contracted Captain Paul Tankersley's murder (although I cannot believe that Honor was unaware of that).

Anyway that should limit any possibility of a romantic pairing with someone in the Ballroom, since anyone in the Ballroom is authorized to kill her.
Top

Return to Honorverse