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Astrology and the Honorverse

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Astrology and the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:59 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Many of you do not believe in the silly practice of steering one's life by the stars.
I agree with you, wholeheartedly.

Yet, there is a particular sun sign that is NOT compatible with me.
No matter how beautiful a woman I may meet, when finding out that she is this particular sign, I cannot hold back a certain...Oh No!...from past experiences and astrological warnings.

And why is it that every long-term relationship that I manage seem to be astrologically compatible signs?

However we may think, people will always be a bit...superstitious.
Do you walk under ladders?
Do you avoid walking on cracks (to avoid breaking your mother's back?)
Ringing bells are said to frighten away evil spirits, and is why they are rung at weddings, funerals and New Year's Day.
Gremlin bells are hung on motorcycles to keep bad spirits from hitching a ride.

Manticore
Manticore had a 22.45 T-hour day, and a year that equals to 1.73 Earth years. There were 673.31 days in a local year, and 629.83 T-days in a year. The Manticore year was divided into 18 months with 11 of 37 days, 7 of 38 days, alternating for the first 6 and last 8 months.

Sphinx days were 25.62 T-hours long, and there were 1,783.28 days in a Sphinxian Year. There were 1,903.65 T-days in a year, and one Sphinx year equalled 5.22 T-years. The Sphinx year was divided into 46 months, 35 of 39 days and 11 of 38 days. The shorter months fell into even-numbered months from 12th month to 32nd month, with a leap year every seven years. Sphinx had a fourteen-degree axial tilt.

This must give astrologers in the Honorverse headaches.
Are there more signs created to accompany each additional month, or are our twelve month system projected onto their extra months with each of our zodiac periods becoming longer, say forty-five day periods in the case of Manticore, to account for the extra six months?

This also seems unlikely, because astrology is based on the Constellations, and
When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars


will not mean anything in another solar system.

Yet Solarians will meet and fall in love with non-Sol humans, and being guided by the stars these people must find a way to determine compatibility.

And what of someone conceived on Old Terra, yet born in another Solar system?
If we give astrology credence each of us have our naturally compatible signs. One of those most compatible signs seem to be the sign of our conception month instead of our birth month.

And what of the Earth sign of Taurus the bull. Are there even bulls in the Honorverse? Probably not natively.

Should there be a treecat sign, a hexapuma sign, a gremlin sign?


At any rate, I need help guesstimating our beloved character's possible sun sign. Let's use our own system...for now...at least until our hypothetical G. C. Astrology, Phd. works it out.

I'll take a stab at Elizabeth.
hmmm...stubborn, rarely leaves Manticore, more legendary stubbornness, sense of duty, feet firmly planted on the ground.

She is easy-peasy...Taurus the stubborn bull!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Astrology and the Honorverse
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:08 pm

Jonathan_S
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Posts: 8269
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

cthia wrote:Many of you do not believe in the silly practice of steering one's life by the stars.
I agree with you, wholeheartedly.

[snip]
And what of the Earth sign of Taurus the bull. Are there even bulls in the Honorverse? Probably not natively.
As someone who doesn't pay attention to astrology I'm going to focus on one tiny little extraneous aside you made and let others tackle the headaches of non-applicable signs. :D

I don't know if there are bulls, or cattle, on any of the three Manticorans system planets. But there almost certainly are in the Honorverse; even in those parts beyond earth itself ;) (though off earth they'd be imports, not native).

After all Montana is known for raising beef. While its possible that artificial insemination and sex selection could keep their herds 100% cows (female) that seems unlikely. I suspect there are plenty of bulls on Montana, even if most of them get turned into veal fairly early.

For that matter wasn't Grayson raising cattle in some of their orbital farms?

So yes bulls should be fairly well known in the Honorverse.
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Re: Astrology and the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:18 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Many of you do not believe in the silly practice of steering one's life by the stars.
I agree with you, wholeheartedly.

[snip]
And what of the Earth sign of Taurus the bull. Are there even bulls in the Honorverse? Probably not natively.
As someone who doesn't pay attention to astrology I'm going to focus on one tiny little extraneous aside you made and let others tackle the headaches of non-applicable signs. :D

I don't know if there are bulls, or cattle, on any of the three Manticorans system planets. But there almost certainly are in the Honorverse; even in those parts beyond earth itself ;) (though off earth they'd be imports, not native).

After all Montana is known for raising beef. While its possible that artificial insemination and sex selection could keep their herds 100% cows (female) that seems unlikely. I suspect there are plenty of bulls on Montana, even if most of them get turned into veal fairly early.

For that matter wasn't Grayson raising cattle in some of their orbital farms?

So yes bulls should be fairly well known in the Honorverse.


Thanks for straightening me out!
I completely forgot Montana.
Thanks again.

In the spirit of Scotty...'Captain, there be bulls!'

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Astrology and the Honorverse
Post by Bill Woods   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:43 pm

Bill Woods
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Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:39 pm

cthia wrote:
Manticore had a 22.45 T-hour day, and a year that equals to 1.73 Earth years. There were 673.31 days in a local year, and 629.83 T-days in a year. The Manticore year was divided into 18 months with 11 of 37 days, 7 of 38 days, alternating for the first 6 and last 8 months.
Enh, the calendar designer could have done better: 24 months of 28 days, plus one day at the end of the year which has neither month nor day of the week, plus a second ~3 years in ten.
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Astrology and the Honorverse
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:57 pm

JohnRoth
Admiral

Posts: 2438
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:54 am
Location: Centreville, VA, USA

cthia wrote:
...

Manticore
Manticore had a 22.45 T-hour day, and a year that equals to 1.73 Earth years. There were 673.31 days in a local year, and 629.83 T-days in a year. The Manticore year was divided into 18 months with 11 of 37 days, 7 of 38 days, alternating for the first 6 and last 8 months.

Sphinx days were 25.62 T-hours long, and there were 1,783.28 days in a Sphinxian Year. There were 1,903.65 T-days in a year, and one Sphinx year equalled 5.22 T-years. The Sphinx year was divided into 46 months, 35 of 39 days and 11 of 38 days. The shorter months fell into even-numbered months from 12th month to 32nd month, with a leap year every seven years. Sphinx had a fourteen-degree axial tilt.

This must give astrologers in the Honorverse headaches.
Are there more signs created to accompany each additional month, or are our twelve month system projected onto their extra months with each of our zodiac periods becoming longer, say forty-five day periods in the case of Manticore, to account for the extra six months?


As someone who started studying astrology back in 1976 (a way of finding something in common with my girlfriend of the time), I think I can clear up some of your confusion.

No, the astrological zodiac is not based on the months. It's a completely synthetic division of a circle into 12 equal parts. You can do that with any circle, so there would be no difficulty transferring that part of the system. The starting point is oriented with the intersection of the planet's equatorial plane with the system's "invariant plane," so the only difficulty would be on a planet whose rotational axis is exactly at right angles with the invariant plane. Might happen, but it's unlikely. (For people who don't get the technicalise, axial inclination = 0.0)

cthia wrote:
This also seems unlikely, because astrology is based on the Constellations, and
When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars


will not mean anything in another solar system.


No, it's not based on the constellations, regardless of the similarity in names. I have yet to find someone who can tell me how an absolutely equal division into 12 aligns with a very irregular division into 14.

cthia wrote:Yet Solarians will meet and fall in love with non-Sol humans, and being guided by the stars these people must find a way to determine compatibility.

And what of someone conceived on Old Terra, yet born in another Solar system?
If we give astrology credence each of us have our naturally compatible signs. One of those most compatible signs seem to be the sign of our conception month instead of our birth month.

And what of the Earth sign of Taurus the bull. Are there even bulls in the Honorverse? Probably not natively.

Should there be a treecat sign, a hexapuma sign, a gremlin sign?


At any rate, I need help guesstimating our beloved character's possible sun sign. Let's use our own system...for now...at least until our hypothetical G. C. Astrology, Phd. works it out.

I'll take a stab at Elizabeth.
hmmm...stubborn, rarely leaves Manticore, more legendary stubbornness, sense of duty, feet firmly planted on the ground.

She is easy-peasy...Taurus the stubborn bull!


There is only one group of people who resemble their sun signs: novice astrologers who know enough to be dangerous but not enough to actually make it work. People who don't know any astrology don't resemble their sun signs unless you really work at it, and real astrologers know better.

BTW: I'm quite well aware that astrology is incompatible with hard-core materialism. I could give you a rather lengthy and eye-glazing introduction to the philosophy of the subject, so let's let this part of the topic lie, eh?
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Re: Astrology and the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:19 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

JohnRoth wrote:
cthia wrote:
...

Manticore
Manticore had a 22.45 T-hour day, and a year that equals to 1.73 Earth years. There were 673.31 days in a local year, and 629.83 T-days in a year. The Manticore year was divided into 18 months with 11 of 37 days, 7 of 38 days, alternating for the first 6 and last 8 months.

Sphinx days were 25.62 T-hours long, and there were 1,783.28 days in a Sphinxian Year. There were 1,903.65 T-days in a year, and one Sphinx year equalled 5.22 T-years. The Sphinx year was divided into 46 months, 35 of 39 days and 11 of 38 days. The shorter months fell into even-numbered months from 12th month to 32nd month, with a leap year every seven years. Sphinx had a fourteen-degree axial tilt.

This must give astrologers in the Honorverse headaches.
Are there more signs created to accompany each additional month, or are our twelve month system projected onto their extra months with each of our zodiac periods becoming longer, say forty-five day periods in the case of Manticore, to account for the extra six months?


As someone who started studying astrology back in 1976 (a way of finding something in common with my girlfriend of the time), I think I can clear up some of your confusion.

No, the astrological zodiac is not based on the months. It's a completely synthetic division of a circle into 12 equal parts. You can do that with any circle, so there would be no difficulty transferring that part of the system. The starting point is oriented with the intersection of the planet's equatorial plane with the system's "invariant plane," so the only difficulty would be on a planet whose rotational axis is exactly at right angles with the invariant plane. Might happen, but it's unlikely. (For people who don't get the technicalise, axial inclination = 0.0)

cthia wrote:
This also seems unlikely, because astrology is based on the Constellations, and
When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars


will not mean anything in another solar system.


No, it's not based on the constellations, regardless of the similarity in names. I have yet to find someone who can tell me how an absolutely equal division into 12 aligns with a very irregular division into 14.

cthia wrote:Yet Solarians will meet and fall in love with non-Sol humans, and being guided by the stars these people must find a way to determine compatibility.

And what of someone conceived on Old Terra, yet born in another Solar system?
If we give astrology credence each of us have our naturally compatible signs. One of those most compatible signs seem to be the sign of our conception month instead of our birth month.

And what of the Earth sign of Taurus the bull. Are there even bulls in the Honorverse? Probably not natively.

Should there be a treecat sign, a hexapuma sign, a gremlin sign?


At any rate, I need help guesstimating our beloved character's possible sun sign. Let's use our own system...for now...at least until our hypothetical G. C. Astrology, Phd. works it out.

I'll take a stab at Elizabeth.
hmmm...stubborn, rarely leaves Manticore, more legendary stubbornness, sense of duty, feet firmly planted on the ground.

She is easy-peasy...Taurus the stubborn bull!


There is only one group of people who resemble their sun signs: novice astrologers who know enough to be dangerous but not enough to actually make it work. People who don't know any astrology don't resemble their sun signs unless you really work at it, and real astrologers know better.

BTW: I'm quite well aware that astrology is incompatible with hard-core materialism. I could give you a rather lengthy and eye-glazing introduction to the philosophy of the subject, so let's let this part of the topic lie, eh?


I've gotten the philosophical talk already. I get it all the time. My fiancee Gemma gives it to me all the time. We are technically incompatible, as per the astrology signs, but we really are the most compatible couple I've known!
She minored in psychology and studies philosophy intensely.
We both love Heidegger and Kant!

She detests astrology.

Thanks for clearing up many inconsistencies of mine!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Astrology and the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:30 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Anyone care to give a go at Honor's possible sign?

Chicken...cluck...cluck.
I see feathers! :D

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Astrology and the Honorverse
Post by KNick   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:44 pm

KNick
Admiral

Posts: 2142
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:38 am
Location: Billings, MT, USA

cthia wrote:Anyone care to give a go at Honor's possible sign?

Chicken...cluck...cluck.
I see feathers! :D


Honor is easy. She's a Gemini. Two sides of the same coin.
_


Try to take a fisherman's fish and you will be tomorrows bait!!!
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Re: Astrology and the Honorverse
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:08 pm

JohnRoth
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Posts: 2438
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:54 am
Location: Centreville, VA, USA

cthia wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:BTW: I'm quite well aware that astrology is incompatible with hard-core materialism. I could give you a rather lengthy and eye-glazing introduction to the philosophy of the subject, so let's let this part of the topic lie, eh?


I've gotten the philosophical talk already. I get it all the time. My fiancee Gemma gives it to me all the time. We are technically incompatible, as per the astrology signs, but we really are the most compatible couple I've known!
She minored in psychology and studies philosophy intensely.
We both love Heidegger and Kant!

She detests astrology.

Thanks for clearing up many inconsistencies of mine!


You've gotten the background on Platonism, Neoplatonism, a dozen other Classical Greek philosophers, and learned that the reason the Greeks restricted themselves to straight lines and circles in their geometry was because they were perfect and hence as close to God as they were going to get?

I'd have loved to sit in on those discussions. Without that, all you know is a pale shadow of the art, and anyone who argues against it without knowing the background is simply displaying their ignorance. Not that most professional astrologers know the intellectual history of the art.

Not that it has much to do with whether or not it works; I just dislike people pontificating from a smug position of unrecognized ignorance.

From someone who could have become a professional astrologer if I'd been willing to compromise a few principles, I'd advise either forgetting the sun sign junk or learn some real astrology. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
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Re: Astrology and the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:25 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

JohnRoth wrote:
You've gotten the background on Platonism, Neoplatonism, a dozen other Classical Greek philosophers, and learned that the reason the Greeks restricted themselves to straight lines and circles in their geometry was because they were perfect and hence as close to God as they were going to get?

I'd have loved to sit in on those discussions. Without that, all you know is a pale shadow of the art, and anyone who argues against it without knowing the background is simply displaying their ignorance. Not that most professional astrologers know the intellectual history of the art.

Not that it has much to do with whether or not it works; I just dislike people pontificating from a smug position of unrecognized ignorance.

From someone who could have become a professional astrologer if I'd been willing to compromise a few principles, I'd advise either forgetting the sun sign junk or learn some real astrology. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.


Hey, I'm with you that I don't know a damn thing about astrology! I hope I didn't imply that I did.

The gist of my knowledge begins and ends with knowing my own sign and the signs I am supposed to be compatible with.

The why and the how, completely escapes me!

My fiancee doesn't know much about it either.
She just hates that it says we're not supposed to be compatible!

I am sure you know much...so show us some, and tell me what some of the characters may be. I sure can't!

Except Elizabeth, she seems to be Taurean for sure!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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