Cupid

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The Manticore case is murkier, but more definite. We know she operated as an assassin for years and so does Anton. There is no extenuating circumstance here. But there is the burden of proof. My feeling on this case is that the LCPD investigations and the judicial proceedings will conclude her guilt in absentia, so if she returns, she will have no option but to go to prison (she'll have waived her right to appeal by not appealing).

Although there is a mention of a police agent that died and a suicide; I do not think that she ever was accused of being an assassin.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:But what if she is pregnant by Stefan? In fact, what if she returns and reveals that one of her twin embryos belong to both Pavel and Stefan? She claims they gave her permission to inseminate herself in case of death.

Manticore would be hard pressed to kill the true heir of a title who is pregnant with two more additional heirs. Titles help make a Monarchy strong. The Monarchy does not truly wish to dissolve a title.

She was NEVER in danger of being killed by Manticore, they do not have the evidence to charge her with much more than creating a fire and an explosion within city limits.

Indeed! That is so true! But I never particularly saw her trouble with Landing as a real problem.

tlb wrote:It is the Ballroom that intends to kill her.

And this is where it gets very interesting. Georgia is no doubt intelligent.

Whereas I cannot imagine the Alignment wasting the "stunning beauty" gene on average workers, I can certainly imagine that the sex-slaves -- certainly the C-line sex slaves -- are NOT dumb blondes. They may not be Alphas, but they are certainly highly intelligent.

So she should be able to see many moves ahead on the chess board. Heck, playing a very extended long-winded chess match is certainly in her DNA.

If she returns pregnant with the Youngs' heirs, and she manages to evade the legal trouble on Manticore, then technically she becomes a law abiding title holding peer of the realm. If it is known that a peer of the realm is being hunted by notorious Ballroom bounty hunters, wouldn't Manticore be obligated to protect Lady Young?

As a matter of fact -- via six degrees of separation and Beth's close proximity to Queen Berry, along with Beth's many other influences -- perhaps this vendetta can be solved without much further ado by diplomatic means. Before the whole mess turns into a galactic scandal.

OTOH, it sure would look good for Manticore and the Crown if a slave ended up living the whole dream in the richest city in the richest system in the galaxy ...

From slave, to rags, to riches, to nobility, to 'royalty.'

I mean, these anti-slavery nations are NOT just paying lip service. It would look awesome for the Crown to have an example of a slave inheriting a title and becoming noble.

tlb wrote:Anyway you forget both that there are plenty of people that could inherit the title, if the children do not survive, and that fetuses can be tubed, so a mother need no longer be present.

I doubt that the Monarchy has been made any stronger by this particular title.

There may be plenty of people. Besides, that end result is so boring. Life is rarely that accommodating.

If she escapes the legal trouble then it is a moot point. And she should easily be able to avoid having her fetuses removed if she wants to give the legal heirs the benefit and nurturing love of natural childbirth.

The Young line could probably use a diversion from past generations and ways of doing things.

cthia wrote:As a matter of fact -- via six degrees of separation and Beth's close proximity to Queen Berry, along with Beth's many other influences -- perhaps this vendetta can be solved without much further ado by diplomatic means. Before the whole mess turns into a galactic scandal.

A more likely solution, because of the ties you mention, is that she gets extradited to Torch to stand trial. And if convicted the babies are tubed and she dies.

Not being an expert in nobility, I am not sure that she can inherit the title; since she is not an "heir of the body".

Other possible legal problems; unless specifically mentioned in the wills of the deceased Earls, she had no legal right to make herself pregnant since that would be theft of the property of the new Earl.

I am not sure why you included a child of Pavel, since that child would be illegitimate and therefore excluded from any consideration. Frankly the child by Stefan in the circumstances you propose is most likely also illegitimate, since the bonds of marriage are dissolved by death (as in the phrase "til death do us part"). Depending on Manticoran law, any posthumous pregnancy coming after a new Earl had been declared might not be allowed to override the disposition of the estate; precisely because those children are considered illegitimate, unless they are mentioned in the will.

cthia wrote:If she returns pregnant with the Youngs' heirs, and she manages to evade the legal trouble on Manticore, then technically she becomes a law abiding title holding peer of the realm. If it is known that a peer of the realm is being hunted by notorious Ballroom bounty hunters, wouldn't Manticore be obligated to protect Lady Young?

So here's the scenario, the Ballroom already know that LADY North Hollow was the escaped slave they've been hunting for decades. Catherine forced her to leave Manticore, and then at least 10 years after 1920 (end of High Ridge government) she tries to come back and reclaim the title and her due?


Well first of all, she's been missing, presumed dead for all that time, so IF anyone else in the Young family (currently none that we are aware of) would have likely already been seated. Elizabeth also really really didn't like North Hollow, whether it was Dmitri, Pavel or Stefan; so she's hardly likely to agree to making an entirely new title just for Georgia, because they seated someone else after Georgia completely vanishes for years, perhaps decades.

Secondly, Torch is only ~6 days away by dispatch boat and I almost guarantee Catherine, former Lady Tor, will personally BUY a dispatch boat on the spot out of pocket change if none are available for hire. So Torch and Jeremy will know about her popping up almost immediately, especially since he's been told she's never to do it. Catherine's "butler" is active Ballroom himself, and he's certainly going to send his own messages out, so a Ballroom strike team would be heading to Manticore within 2 weeks at the longest.

Third, Catherine handed over her record to the Ballroom and almost certainly also to Landing Police Dept to help ensure she can't casually come back without extensive identity change. So everybody important will know all the crimes she was actually guilty of during her days as Elaine Komandorski before she disappeared (to LPD) and her next appearance was as Georgia Sakristos, an employee of Dmitri Young.

Fourth, Georgia couldn't take her seat immediately even if it were still empty. Unlike Honor, she can't claim military service to be seated immediately, so she may potentially have to wait months to be officially seated. But the circumstances around her disappearance would make seating her even then an extreme political bomb. The North Hollow mansion blows up and not just a wing of it, but the entire mansion; and coincidentally she disappears for multiple years, possibly decades and then she casually comes strolling back in like nothing was wrong?

There'd be at least 2 major criminal investigations into her disappearance, assuming she wasn't outright arrested on the spot. Unless she can fool technological lie-detectors AND treecats, since she actually is guilty of personally setting up the mansion's destruction, she's automatically guilty of that crime alone. Anything more severe would depend on Catherine+Anton having turned over the information to LPD about how Georgia is Elaine. If they ARE aware, since they already have her in custody and 'reasonable suspicion' of her identity, well gee-whiz they already have the furry and robotic lie detectors around, might as well "confirm a few more things" and her own words/feelings doom her for past actions unless she's a complete sociopath with the emotional range of a tea spoon.


I recall reading how Georgia knew she's guilty enough Manticore would lock her up so long even prolong wouldn't maintain her gene-modded looks and that was purely off Elaine's crimes. Even her own 'former political party members' would be baying for her head, if only to divert any suspicions away from them. After all, she was Stefan's hatchet-woman and wife, she almost certainly personally handed any blackmail events during the High Ridge administration, and they'd be salivating at the chance to turn things back on her, and that they wouldn't even have to lie about what she made them do using 'North Hollow file blackmail' would give them even more pleasure at doing it.


No if Elaine dares return to Manticore, she'll be so heavily gene-modded, she'd be like Victor, Anton, Thandi and the rest of the Mesa team. She wouldn't try to use the names Georgia Sakristos or Elaine Komandorski again, simply breathing those names would almost bring the Ballroom sniffing. If she tried to seduce her way into nobility again (under a new name & identity), she'd see all the treecats around in politics now and probably leave again, she may even be better at lying than Firebrand but you can't fool the cats.

Somtaaw wrote:I recall reading how Georgia knew she's guilty enough Manticore would lock her up so long even prolong wouldn't maintain her gene-modded looks and that was purely off Elaine's crimes. Even her own 'former political party members' would be baying for her head, if only to divert any suspicions away from them. After all, she was Stefan's hatchet-woman and wife, she almost certainly personally handed any blackmail events during the High Ridge administration, and they'd be salivating at the chance to turn things back on her, and that they wouldn't even have to lie about what she made them do using 'North Hollow file blackmail' would give them even more pleasure at doing it.

But she destroyed that evidence from the blackmail files as soon as Pavel was dead, so it is gone.

Generally people will shy away from saying that they were blackmailed into doing something; because it will be assumed that whatever they did to cause the blackmail was at least as bad as whatever they did as the result of the blackmail.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:As a matter of fact -- via six degrees of separation and Beth's close proximity to Queen Berry, along with Beth's many other influences -- perhaps this vendetta can be solved without much further ado by diplomatic means. Before the whole mess turns into a galactic scandal.

A more likely solution, because of the ties you mention, is that she gets extradited to Torch to stand trial. And if convicted the babies are tubed and she dies.

Extradition is probably out of the question. The treaty would be with Torch, not with the Ballroom. There is no way Manticore would extradite criminals and deliver them to a terrorist organization for assassination. Besides, the reason for the request for an extradition has to be because of a crime. The crime has to be a crime in both countries. In this case, would betraying a freighter full of slaves even be a crime? Is there proof that any one of the slaves resulted in loss of life?

At any rate, even that could work out for Georgia. A formal extradition to Torch would result in a trial. Georgia would have her sounding board. There will be no assassination. And if somewhere in-between she and Jeremy fall in love. Problem solved.

tlb wrote:Not being an expert in nobility, I am not sure that she can inherit the title; since she is not an "heir of the body".

Probably a moot point if by marriage she is the only one who exists. If there is no other Young blood.

tlb wrote:Other possible legal problems; unless specifically mentioned in the wills of the deceased Earls, she had no legal right to make herself pregnant since that would be theft of the property of the new Earl.

Burden of proof is on the accuser. Regardless of how the offspring are made, they are still the legal heirs. As it is in the cases of rape. Besides, she is claiming she was given permission. It certainly has to be accepted that she was given the sperm.

tlb wrote:I am not sure why you included a child of Pavel, since that child would be illegitimate and therefore excluded from any consideration. Frankly the child by Stefan in the circumstances you propose is most likely also illegitimate, since the bonds of marriage are dissolved by death (as in the phrase "til death do us part"). Depending on Manticoran law, any posthumous pregnancy coming after a new Earl had been declared might not be allowed to override the disposition of the estate; precisely because those children are considered illegitimate, unless they are mentioned in the will.

Illegetimacy would not prevent succession if there are no other heirs. Pavel's baby would be another potential heir. Having two heirs is better than one. In fact, she could have triplets. Dmitri was a dog too.

tlb wrote:Not being an expert in nobility, I am not sure that she can inherit the title; since she is not an "heir of the body".

Other possible legal problems; unless specifically mentioned in the wills of the deceased Earls, she had no legal right to make herself pregnant since that would be theft of the property of the new Earl.

I am not sure why you included a child of Pavel, since that child would be illegitimate and therefore excluded from any consideration. Frankly the child by Stefan in the circumstances you propose is most likely also illegitimate, since the bonds of marriage are dissolved by death (as in the phrase "til death do us part"). Depending on Manticoran law, any posthumous pregnancy coming after a new Earl had been declared might not be allowed to override the disposition of the estate; precisely because those children are considered illegitimate, unless they are mentioned in the will.

cthia wrote:Probably a moot point if by marriage she is the only one who exists. If there is no other Young blood.

Burden of proof is on the accuser. Regardless of how the offspring are made, they are still the legal heirs. As it is in the cases of rape. Besides, she is claiming she was given permission. It certainly has to be accepted that she was given the sperm.

Illegetimacy would not prevent succession if there are no other heirs. Pavel's baby would be another potential heir. Having two heirs is better than one. In fact, she could have triplets. Dmitri was a dog too.

That is NOT true under English law, here is an article from 2015:

UK: The Queen Steps Into A Row About DNA And The Peerage
02 November 2015
Emily Minett says a 'dossier of DNA evidence' at the Crown Office may oust late baronet's son from promised title.

The Queen has personally ordered seven of Britain's most senior judges to rule on whether DNA evidence can be used for the first time to resolve a feud over a hereditary title.

The title in question is the Baronetcy of Stichill, which dates back to 1683 when King Charles II granted the title to Robert Pringle of Stichill 'ac heredibus masculis de suo corpore', a Latin phrase translating as 'and his male heirs from his body'.

The late tenth baronet, Sir Steuart Pringle, was the commandant general of the Royal Marines during the Falklands War. On his death in 2013, it was expected that his eldest son, Simon Pringle, would become the eleventh Baronet. However, DNA samples provided for an innocent family tree project controversially indicated that the tenth baronet was not genetically related to his cousins.

This means that that the ninth baronet could not have been the biological son of the eighth baronet - the title had passed through an illegitimate child to the wrong side of the family. This is so, despite the mother of the ninth baronet having made a formal statutory declaration at the time declaring otherwise.

If the Privy Council decides that the DNA evidence is accurate and can be used to decide the matter, the title should pass to Norman Murray Pringle, the descendant on the other side of the family. Simon Pringle laid his claim at the Crown Office in June 2013 and Norman Murray Pringle asserted his rival claim in September 2013, along with a dossier of DNA evidence.

We understand that there is no land or property associated with the title, so the outcome of the case should not affect entitlement to the Pringle estate, although it does raise the question of whether the eighth baronet would have passed the estate to his eldest 'child', had the evidence been available then.

There is a rebuttable presumption in law that a child born to a woman married to a man is the child of her husband, so if the use of DNA evidence is approved, not only would it rebut this presumption, override the earlier statutory declaration and generally be a marked break with tradition, but it could set an important precedent for future cases regarding claims to titles.

It is quite possible that we could see numerous 'pretenders' emerging with genetic evidence of their birthright. It has been reported in the press that this would include the Royal family.

The use of DNA would bring title disputes in line with the law regarding disputes over the succession to assets on death, where DNA evidence is accepted. It is interesting to note that if it was discovered on an intestacy dispute that a child, illegitimate or not, was not the biological child of a deceased and was not adopted by the deceased, that child would not be entitled to receive anything under the intestacy rules.

Put another way: if the eighth baronet had died without a will, the child who controversially inherited the title would not in modern times be entitled to any of his assets. There is a clear mismatch between the succession rules for assets and those for titles.

On a related point, also at odds (many would say rightly) is the law concerning the rights of illegitimate children. Since 1987, illegitimate children have been entitled to inherit under wills and trusts unless the document in question says otherwise. This is not so with titles: these must always pass to legitimate children.

The case is due to be heard by the Privy Council at the end of November. Their ruling as to who should inherit the Baronetcy of Stichill will not just be significant for Norman Murray Pringle and Simon Robert Pringle, but for members of the aristocracy throughout Britain.

This article was originally published in Spears on 20 October 2015

From Wikipedia:

On 27 June 2016, Grant Bavister, Assistant Register to the Baronetage at the Ministry of Justice, entered Sir Ronald Steuart Pringle and his son Sir Norman Murray Pringle onto the Official Roll of the Baronetage, as the 9th and 10th de jure Baronets. He also removed the de facto 9th and 10th Baronets, Norman Hamilton Pringle and his son Steuart Robert Pringle, from the Roll, in accordance with the Royal Warrant of 1910. Certificates of succession to this effect were issued to Sir Norman Murray Pringle on 1 July 2016.

PS: I did say that the extradition would be to Torch and that only requires that an extradition treaty be in place, not that the action be illegal in both places (although selling escaped slaves back to Manpower probably is illegal in both places).

tlb wrote:From Wikipedia:

On 27 June 2016, Grant Bavister, Assistant Register to the Baronetage at the Ministry of Justice, entered Sir Ronald Steuart Pringle and his son Sir Norman Murray Pringle onto the Official Roll of the Baronetage, as the 9th and 10th de jure Baronets. He also removed the de facto 9th and 10th Baronets, Norman Hamilton Pringle and his son Steuart Robert Pringle, from the Roll, in accordance with the Royal Warrant of 1910. Certificates of succession to this effect were issued to Sir Norman Murray Pringle on 1 July 2016.

I think the case that cthia is creating is even more complicated than this, and is something where science is outpacing the law. Today.

Let's start with the uncontroversial case: man and woman are married, man gives permission to use his frozen sperm to impregnate the woman. Child is legitimate heir.

Now let's say this woman does not get permission and impregnates herself anyway. I'd say it's still uncontroversial: the child is legitimate and an heir. But the woman may get in trouble for stealing the sperm (if she wasn't a co-owner anyway).

What if the man has passed away? Even assuming theft, the child itself is blameless and probably an heir, though it might be difficult to redistribute the assets if the will was executed a long time before. Note I said "an heir" not "a legitimate child," since there may still be provisions in the law about children born outside of marriage as illegitimate (bastards).

What if the woman that gets impregnated was never married to this man in the first place? How is this different from an anonymous sperm donor?

I don't know the answers to any of those questions. Just asking them.

tlb wrote:Although there is a mention of a police agent that died and a suicide; I do not think that she ever was accused of being an assassin.

Indeed, which is why she was still free on Landing prior to this. But am I wrong to assume that Anton now had proof of her crimes on Landing and was going to share it with the police?

tlb wrote:Although there is a mention of a police agent that died and a suicide; I do not think that she ever was accused of being an assassin.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Indeed, which is why she was still free on Landing prior to this. But am I wrong to assume that Anton now had proof of her crimes on Landing and was going to share it with the police?

Anton went to Smoking Frog to get evidence on the origin for Lady Georgia Young, which involved buying her way out of slavery. The only evidence that could have sent her to prison for crimes in Landing (prior to blowing up a house) was in the blackmail files and was deleted on Pavel's death.