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How are junction fees paid and collected

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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jan 28, 2025 4:58 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
tlb wrote:To be clear, we know that both the Shark class and the Ghost class can manage hyperspace transitions; so the only additional unknown is whether they mount sails. Although we do not know how far away from inhabited space Darius is, we do know that there is a wormhole that connects it. We know that the only experimental part of the equipment for these ship classes was the spider drive (and maybe the streak drive). So the question is whether the Malign would build a warship that cannot use either wormholes or gravity waves in hyperspace.

Though there is the one other indication that Ghosts and Sharks should be able to handle grav waves; and that's a relatively passing description, way back in HotQ, of Honor's little convoy arriving under sail.

Specifically
Honor of the Queen wrote:“Mark!” DuMorne said crisply, and the normally inaudible hum of Fearless’s hyper generator became a basso growl.
[snip] readouts flashed steadily downward as the entire convoy plummeted “down” the hyper space gradient.
Fearless hit the gamma wall, and her Warshawski sails bled transit energy like an azure forest fire. Her velocity dropped almost instantly from .3 C to a mere nine percent of light-speed, [snip]
DuMorne’s calculations had allowed for the energy bleed, and their translation gradient steepened even further as their velocity fell. They hit the beta wall four minutes later, and Honor winced again—less violently this time—as their velocity bled down to less than two percent of light-speed. The visual display was a fierce chaos of heaving light as the convoy fell straight “down” across a “distance” which had no physical existence, and then they hit the alpha bands and flashed across them to the n-space wall like a comet.
[snip]
Stephen had done his usual bang-up job, and Fearless and her charges floated twenty-four light-minutes from Yeltsin’s Star, just outside the F6’s hyper limit.


So, at a very minimum, there's a grav wave in the Delta bands basically right up to Yeltsin's hyper limit. And assuming RFC remembered than brief mention all those books later when writing Oyster Bay he'd have had to account for the spider ships' ability to deal with that wave.

Though I guess, despite the convoy keeping sails up all the way to n-space, that the wave might not reach down into the Alpha bands. (Since we know grav waves don't always cover all accessible hyper bands). If it didn't, then ships unable to navigate a wave could drop 'under' it and slip up on Grayson through the Alpha bands without needing to interact with the 'wave. Alternatively if the Yeltsin system was on the absolute edge of the wave they might be able to avoid it by making a detour through normal space to avoid it -- though that'd be very slow.

So this isn't a slam dunk confirmation that the Ghosts and Sharks can handle grav waves; but it is another indication that they likely can. (But of course we don't know any tech details)



For Grayson, the wave is only about a light month wide at Yeltsin. So if you are making a translation a light month+ out to spoof the sensors, you can easily choose a hyper locus beyond the grav wave and (like they did at Manticore) accelerate in n-space for the last month or so to make the attack. For the Malign's proposes for Oyster Bay, the Yeltsin Grav wave was just a footnote.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jan 28, 2025 5:23 pm

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Theemile wrote:For Grayson, the wave is only about a light month wide at Yeltsin. So if you are making a translation a light month+ out to spoof the sensors, you can easily choose a hyper locus beyond the grav wave and (like they did at Manticore) accelerate in n-space for the last month or so to make the attack. For the Malign's proposes for Oyster Bay, the Yeltsin Grav wave was just a footnote.

Interesting. Do you remember where you saw that info; because I'd missed (or forgotten) that.

(Though I guess a narrow wave is just a special case of the system being on the edge of the 'wave)
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jan 28, 2025 10:16 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:For Grayson, the wave is only about a light month wide at Yeltsin. So if you are making a translation a light month+ out to spoof the sensors, you can easily choose a hyper locus beyond the grav wave and (like they did at Manticore) accelerate in n-space for the last month or so to make the attack. For the Malign's proposes for Oyster Bay, the Yeltsin Grav wave was just a footnote.

Interesting. Do you remember where you saw that info; because I'd missed (or forgotten) that.

(Though I guess a narrow wave is just a special case of the system being on the edge of the 'wave)


Honor of the Queen. Chapter 2

Their current grav wave was barely a half light-month deep and a light-month wide, a mere rivulet beside titans like the Roaring Deeps, yet its power was enough to send her ship leaping to an effective five thousand gravities’ acceleration in less than two seconds. And should Fearless’s gravity detectors pick up unexpected wave turbulence ahead of her, she might have to do just that.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 28, 2025 11:08 pm

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Theemile wrote:For Grayson, the wave is only about a light month wide at Yeltsin. So if you are making a translation a light month+ out to spoof the sensors, you can easily choose a hyper locus beyond the grav wave and (like they did at Manticore) accelerate in n-space for the last month or so to make the attack. For the Malign's proposes for Oyster Bay, the Yeltsin Grav wave was just a footnote.
Jonathan_S wrote:Interesting. Do you remember where you saw that info; because I'd missed (or forgotten) that.

(Though I guess a narrow wave is just a special case of the system being on the edge of the 'wave)
Theemile wrote:Honor of the Queen. Chapter 2

It's possible that you were mislead by chapter 2, because at that point they were still at least a day's travel from Yeltsin. Here is what I have from Honor of the Queen:
Chapter 2 wrote:Fearless and the ships of her convoy rode the twisted currents of a grav wave which had never attained the dignity of a name, only a catalog number. Honor’s cabin was barely a hundred meters forward of Fearless’s after impeller nodes, and the immaterial, three-hundred-kilometer disk of the cruiser’s after Warshawski sail flickered and flashed like frozen heat lightning, dominating the view port with its soft glory as it harnessed the grav wave’s power. Its grab factor was adjusted to a tiny, almost immeasurable fraction of its full efficiency, providing a minuscule acceleration which was exactly offset by the forward sail’s deceleration to hold Fearless at fifty percent of light-speed. The cruiser could have sustained a velocity twenty percent higher, but the hyper bands’ heavier particle densities would have overcome the freighters’ weaker radiation shielding long before that.
Honor’s brown eyes were rapt as she watched the sail, fascinated as always by its flowing-ice beauty. She could have shut down her ship’s sails and let momentum take its course, but those sails balanced Fearless delicately between them like exquisitely counterpoised fulcrums that lent the cruiser an instant responsiveness. Their current grav wave was barely a half light-month deep and a light-month wide, a mere rivulet beside titans like the Roaring Deeps, yet its power was enough to send her ship leaping to an effective five thousand gravities’ acceleration in less than two seconds. And should Fearless’s gravity detectors pick up unexpected wave turbulence ahead of her, she might have to do just that.
Chapter 3 wrote:“All right, people,” she said. “Thank you all for coming. I’ll try not to use up any more of your time than I have to, but, as you all know, we’ll be translating back into n-space for Yeltsin’s Star tomorrow, and I wanted one last chance to meet with all of you and the Admiral before we do.”
Chapter 5 wrote:Her lips twitched at the familiar thought, and she glanced at her astrogation repeater. Stephen had done his usual bang-up job, and Fearless and her charges floated twenty-four light-minutes from Yeltsin’s Star, just outside the F6’s hyper limit. Even the best hyper log was subject to some error, and the nature of hyper space precluded any observations to correct, but the voyage had been relatively short and DuMorne had shaved his safety margin with an expert touch.
She pressed a com stud on her chair arm while he took normal-space fixes to refine their position, and the voice of her chief engineer answered.
“Engineering, Commander Higgins.”
“Reconfigure to impeller drive, please, Mr. Higgins.”
“Aye, aye, Ma’am. Reconfiguring now,” Higgins acknowledged, and Fearless folded her Warshawski sails into her impeller wedge.
So sails were needed at the hyper-limit. In Chapter 15 the transition is not described, but the peeps do make a transition in chapter 11:
Space was deep and dark and empty sixty-five light-minutes from Yeltsin’s Star, but then, suddenly, two starships blinked into existence, radiating the blue glory of hyper transit from their Warshawski sails in a brief, dazzling flash no eye or sensor observed. They floated for a moment, sails reconfiguring into impeller wedges, and then they began to move, accelerating at scarcely half a dozen gravities in an arc which would intersect the outer edge of the asteroid belt, and no one saw them coming at all.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jan 29, 2025 3:28 am

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Theemile wrote:
Honor of the Queen. Chapter 2

Their current grav wave was barely a half light-month deep and a light-month wide, a mere rivulet beside titans like the Roaring Deeps, yet its power was enough to send her ship leaping to an effective five thousand gravities’ acceleration in less than two seconds. And should Fearless’s gravity detectors pick up unexpected wave turbulence ahead of her, she might have to do just that.
Thanks.

(I'm a little annoyed I missed that; I had just reskimmed the text of the very next paragraph while composing my earlier post. Ah well - the dangers of mostly consuming the books via keyword search these days)
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by tlb   » Thu Jan 30, 2025 8:38 am

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Theemile wrote:Honor of the Queen. Chapter 2
Their current grav wave was barely a half light-month deep and a light-month wide, a mere rivulet beside titans like the Roaring Deeps, yet its power was enough to send her ship leaping to an effective five thousand gravities’ acceleration in less than two seconds. And should Fearless’s gravity detectors pick up unexpected wave turbulence ahead of her, she might have to do just that.
Jonathan_S wrote:Thanks.

(I'm a little annoyed I missed that; I had just reskimmed the text of the very next paragraph while composing my earlier post. Ah well - the dangers of mostly consuming the books via keyword search these days)

Thinking about it over night, I realized that I probably made a major mistake: I was thinking of a light-month as a normal space distance, so easily passed at hyperspace speeds. But it is more likely that this is based on the speed within the band. So traveling a half the speed of light within the band (for computational purposes), it would take a month or two to get through this gravity wave. Which means that this wave may be comparatively small, but is still vast for those traveling through it. So this unnamed wave, with only a ID number, would likely surround Yeltsin as Theemile stated.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by tlb   » Sat Feb 01, 2025 8:01 am

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tlb wrote:Thinking about it over night, I realized that I probably made a major mistake: I was thinking of a light-month as a normal space distance, so easily passed at hyperspace speeds. But it is more likely that this is based on the speed within the band. So traveling a half the speed of light within the band (for computational purposes), it would take a month or two to get through this gravity wave. Which means that this wave may be comparatively small, but is still vast for those traveling through it. So this unnamed wave, with only a ID number, would likely surround Yeltsin as Theemile stated.
Theemile wrote:For Grayson, the wave is only about a light month wide at Yeltsin. So if you are making a translation a light month+ out to spoof the sensors, you can easily choose a hyper locus beyond the grav wave and (like they did at Manticore) accelerate in n-space for the last month or so to make the attack. For the Malign's proposes for Oyster Bay, the Yeltsin Grav wave was just a footnote.
But if I am now correct, that means when you drop into N-space you are at least 60 times further out (the ratio between Normal and Alpha band ligh speeds). So instead of dropping half to one light-month out, you end up 30 to 60 light-months out from Yeltsin; not an acceptable amount of time to travel for an attack.

PS: To be clear, I think the points in hyperspace are one-to-one with normal space; so if you drop out a million kilometers out from someplace in hyperspace, you will end up a million kilometers out in normal space. It is only distances that are stated as light-speed multiplied by time that get inflated as you transit to normal space; but this will be most distances, since travel time is a common way to measure distance and your speed in hyperspace is some fraction of the speed of light (in that band).
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Feb 01, 2025 11:29 pm

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Electronic passes for autos and tractor-trailer/commercial vs charges for vessels using canals are a case of apples vs oranges.
At the moment, most autos with two axels (not using Express lanes) are charged per vehicle in the US. If you are pulling a trailer (not commercial) then there is a higher rate for the extra axel or axels but it's essential a flat rate. Commercial vehicles are treated differently mostly because of weight (vehicle and freight) and "usually" have a transponder that covers them for normal traffic. BUT....the states maintain weigh stations and safety inspection locations which usually require commercial traffic (typically 18 wheelers etc) to go though the scales to confirm that they are running within the rated and listed load. Higher weights put more ware on roads so overnight gets fined.
At least the Panama Canal charges by vessel displacement and variations on passengers/crew and or number of passenger cabins, plus certain details of cargo. And, of course, you have to be of a width and draft to fit through the locks. Overloaded a ship and you make it sit deeper in the water so you could ground in a lock. You also have to file transit papers and include all sorts of cargo and passenger/crew data. Over burdened vessels are a huge danger.

Then you have the same deal as with weigh stations on highways.......you can be boarded for customs and immigration inspection for what you are carrying vs what you have declared on your shipping manifests. That was what Scotty and Harkness were doing with Harrington sheet boarding parties to do inspections. People lie to save money and to smuggle stuff. They also may not tell you that they have unsafe conditions on engines etc that could cause problems going though a canal....or a wormhole.
We the reader are not going to get a lot of detail unless it is nessisary to the plot.

I can't see the Alignment running a Ghost through the Junction...........they are going to look really odd, and where are they going to say they are flagged from? Shouldn't even mention that Junction Control is going to scan the crap out of it before they demand it kill acceleration and prepare to be boarded. …º
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by tlb   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 4:32 pm

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tlb wrote:But if I am now correct, that means when you drop into N-space you are at least 60 times further out (the ratio between Normal and Alpha band light speeds). So instead of dropping half to one light-month out, you end up 30 to 60 light-months out from Yeltsin; not an acceptable amount of time to travel for an attack.

Sorry, but I was really hoping someone would either comment that I was extremely wrong or else that I was possibly right. I am surprised by zero response, since this is either important or stupid.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Theemile   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 4:47 pm

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:But if I am now correct, that means when you drop into N-space you are at least 60 times further out (the ratio between Normal and Alpha band light speeds). So instead of dropping half to one light-month out, you end up 30 to 60 light-months out from Yeltsin; not an acceptable amount of time to travel for an attack.

Sorry, but I was really hoping someone would either comment that I was extremely wrong or else that I was possibly right. I am surprised by zero response, since this is either important or stupid.


I personally was thinking that the 1x1/2 light month reference was a n-space reference.

5 light years wide (in N-space) seems fairly wide, as does a Light month in Delta - both of which seem to be a description of the roaring deeps. The n-space distance between Manticore and Grayson is ~20 light years iirc (~1 week for warships) so a width of a light month (where Manticore isn't in the wave) seems off.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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