Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Well, I guess I am wrong again about the inner workings of the British government.

Manticoran government?

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Could Young have been challenged when he cut and run with his ship? Could his honor be called into question, causing him to have to challenge?

Could Honor have challenged Young to a duel after he attempted to rape her? Could anyone in Honor's family have challenged Young because of his attempted rape of Honor? The family's honor would be threatened.

I suspect that Young's professional failings and cowardness aren't grounds for a duel - and I wonder if one of the restrictions on dueling might be that you can't challenge someone for the performance of their professional duties.
(Though that gets messy because that doesn't prevent you from attempting to fabricate a different reason for dueling them. And there might be situations where most Manticorans would think it reasonable to challenge someone who'd been abusing their professional powers to bring harm -- so where would the line be).

As for Pavel's attempted rape. Yeah, that probably could be grounds for a duel. Though that would require Honor to make the assault public - and we happen to know that if she'd been willing to testify there were powers ready and eager to bring the full weight of the justice system down on Pavel's head. So if she'd been willing to go public she wouldn't have needed to duel him. (Though I guess if you feel there's been a miscarriage of justice you might be able to challenge your attacker after they were found not guilty, or after a case was dismissed)
Though we do know there's a bar against dueling in civil litigation -- there may well be a bar against dueling someone over an active criminal case or because you object to them being found not-guilty.

penny wrote:

You are an officer and a gentleman!

Exactly! If that isn't the case, it is a loophole that should be closed and closed quickly. It is what I have been trying to say. If Houseman would have taken Honor to court, his own actions in the performance of his duties (especially as a civilian) should not have been grounds or cause to potentially expose him to a duel or question his honor. And like you just said, if Honor had come forth about the attempted rape, she should not have had to challenge Young to a duel to get justice. There was a government procedure in place to get that justice for her. It should have been the same for Houseman. The courts should have been there for Houseman had he pushed the issue and his honor should never have been in danger of being called into question.

Moreover, since Honor didn't come forth and admit the attempted rape, after a time, Young could have challenged Honor for beating his ass. Having his ass beat by a subordinate "base born bitch" made him the laughing stock in his social circles. After a time, it would have been difficult for Honor to walk back her intransigence. At that point, it would have made the accusation seem self-serving.

An aside: Young should have known what he was up against when taking on a heavy worlder. Obviously he didn't. But if he had, would it still have been illegal to hire a professional to take on Honor?

penny wrote:Besides, Houseman could have been concerned with the lives of all of the civilians on the diplomatic mission. Not just his own. Weren't there others who would have been responsible for menial jobs like secretaries, assistants, etc.? And if so, Houseman might have had a point. These people would normally be evacuated from the kitchen when the oven gets too hot. That is normally what happens now on Earth isn't it? Civilians are not required nor expected to die when diplomatic missions go wrong.

Honor would have been responsible for those people. Theisman said her responsibility is to her own people. If Honor did not seem to want to carry out the responsibility to her own people, where did Houseman's responsibility lie? Being Chief of Missions?

Reminds me of the mess Sir Carmichael's mission got itself into on Sol.

tlb wrote:PS: He is a not a member of the House of Lords, that would be his father, so I am unsure why there is a "Lord" stuck into his name in the quote. At most he has a cadet seat, which is not the same thing.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:PS: He is a not a member of the House of Lords, that would be his father, so I am unsure why there is a "Lord" stuck into his name in the quote. At most he has a cadet seat, which is not the same thing.

I'd assumed it was a a courtesy title of "Lord".

Jonathan_S wrote:That, while not (yet) a peer, as the son of the Earl of North Hollow he might, by courtesy, be addressed as Lord Pavel Young (but never formally as Lord Young -- that surname only form would be reserved for the actual peer. Though in informal conversation, when it was clear which Young was being spoken of people might be sloppy about including the first name)

Admittedly, as seen in the wiki article, that's not quite how the UK currently does it. They reserve the courtesy "Lord" for the younger sons of dukes and marquesses.

Wiki: A mum has revealed how she gave birth to twins born at exactly the same time, which experts believe is an extremely rare phenomenon. Described as 'simultaneous twins', Molly and Micky McLaren were both born naturally at 11:53am on April 27, with the time of their joint arrival confirmed on their birth certificates.Aug 9, 2023

penny wrote:That part confused me. It is why I said I was wrong yet again about the inner workings of the British government. Crossing up the two, I thought that Stefan would be the one to succeed Dmitri, if inheritance is the method. Before tlb pointed out inheritance, I thought both Pavel and Stefan would become Lords. Since the House of Lords do not have a cap on the number of its seats like the House of Commons.

The reason I assumed simultaneous inheritance would be the rule is because of the high probability of simultaneous births, in the HV.

Being born at the exact same time because of tubed births and other factors could be very common in the HV.

Manticoran Peerage seating wrote:All of the peerages above the rank of Baron are represented by two seats: the seat for the current holder of the title, and the "cadet" seat for the same peerage (held by the heir). Thus, when we first meet the Alexander Brothers, their father is Earl White Haven and holds the White Haven seat; Hamish, as his eldest child, is "Lord Alexander," and holds the White Haven cadet seat; and Willie is "the Honorable William" (indicating he is the child of a peer, but not the peer's heir). When Hamish succeeded to the title, he became Earl White Haven, and Willie became "Lord Alexander." For another example, look at Mike Henke and her older brother. Mike is "the Honorable Michelle," her brother is "Lord Henke," and her father is Earl Gold Peak. (Her mother, as the Queen's aunt, is a special case.) There are instances in which two seats (and votes) are combined in a single person, as for example when a single peer holds dual titles and has no heir. The Star Kingdom of Manticore's constitution precludes any individual's holding more than two seats (and votes). In the very rare instances in which three or more titles are united in a single individual, only the two most senior of the titles are allowed seats/votes. For example, if Honor had retained her title as Countess Harrington, in theory she could have been ennobled a second time as Duchess Harrington, in which case she would have held two seats: one as countess and one as duchess. Moreover, she would have been entitled to two cadet seats, one for each title, although under normal circumstances only one cadet seat would have been filled because the same person would have been heir to both titles. (That is, before the birth of her sister and brother, her cousin Devon should technically have been seated in the Lords as "Lord Harrington." The... irregularity of Honor's title and the fact that she was denied her seat in her own right as Countess Harrington after her duel with Pavel -- which occurred before Devon would normally have been seated, anyway -- in effect destroyed the Harrington seat in the House of Lords entirely, and with it the cadet seat. When Devon inherited her title as Earl Harrington, the situation "reset," and his son is now "Lord Harington" whereas Faith Harrington, in addition to being Honor's Grayson heir, is also "Lady Harrington," and would be entitled to the cadet seat of the Duchy of Harrington upon reaching her legal majority. In addition, the Crown may, on its own authority, create as many nonvoting life-peers as it likes. Those peerages are not inheritable and their holders are not entitled to seats in the House of Lords at all. The Crown and Commons may -- with the consent of a majority of the House of Lords -- jointly create voting life peers. The title is not inheritable, and, as such, carries no cadet seat, but the holder of such a peerage is a voting member of the House of Lords for the remainder of his life and may be denied his vote only if the Lords later vote to exclude or the Commons votes to sustain an impeachment.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:That part confused me. It is why I said I was wrong yet again about the inner workings of the British government. Crossing up the two, I thought that Stefan would be the one to succeed Dmitri, if inheritance is the method. Before tlb pointed out inheritance, I thought both Pavel and Stefan would become Lords. Since the House of Lords do not have a cap on the number of its seats like the House of Commons.

The reason I assumed simultaneous inheritance would be the rule is because of the high probability of simultaneous births, in the HV.

Being born at the exact same time because of tubed births and other factors could be very common in the HV.

Because tubed births are under control of the doctors, it could also be the case that it NEVER happens in the HV.

tlb wrote:However it looks as though I have misrepresented things, the cadet seat does have a vote. My Bad. From the Pearls of Weber (in the forum heading under FAQs):

Manticoran Peerage seating wrote:All of the peerages above the rank of Baron are represented by two seats: the seat for the current holder of the title, and the "cadet" seat for the same peerage (held by the heir). Thus, when we first meet the Alexander Brothers, their father is Earl White Haven and holds the White Haven seat; Hamish, as his eldest child, is "Lord Alexander," and holds the White Haven cadet seat; and Willie is "the Honorable William" (indicating he is the child of a peer, but not the peer's heir). When Hamish succeeded to the title, he became Earl White Haven, and Willie became "Lord Alexander." For another example, look at Mike Henke and her older brother. Mike is "the Honorable Michelle," her brother is "Lord Henke," and her father is Earl Gold Peak. (Her mother, as the Queen's aunt, is a special case.) There are instances in which two seats (and votes) are combined in a single person, as for example when a single peer holds dual titles and has no heir. The Star Kingdom of Manticore's constitution precludes any individual's holding more than two seats (and votes). In the very rare instances in which three or more titles are united in a single individual, only the two most senior of the titles are allowed seats/votes. For example, if Honor had retained her title as Countess Harrington, in theory she could have been ennobled a second time as Duchess Harrington, in which case she would have held two seats: one as countess and one as duchess. Moreover, she would have been entitled to two cadet seats, one for each title, although under normal circumstances only one cadet seat would have been filled because the same person would have been heir to both titles. (That is, before the birth of her sister and brother, her cousin Devon should technically have been seated in the Lords as "Lord Harrington." The... irregularity of Honor's title and the fact that she was denied her seat in her own right as Countess Harrington after her duel with Pavel -- which occurred before Devon would normally have been seated, anyway -- in effect destroyed the Harrington seat in the House of Lords entirely, and with it the cadet seat. When Devon inherited her title as Earl Harrington, the situation "reset," and his son is now "Lord Harington" whereas Faith Harrington, in addition to being Honor's Grayson heir, is also "Lady Harrington," and would be entitled to the cadet seat of the Duchy of Harrington upon reaching her legal majority. In addition, the Crown may, on its own authority, create as many nonvoting life-peers as it likes. Those peerages are not inheritable and their holders are not entitled to seats in the House of Lords at all. The Crown and Commons may -- with the consent of a majority of the House of Lords -- jointly create voting life peers. The title is not inheritable, and, as such, carries no cadet seat, but the holder of such a peerage is a voting member of the House of Lords for the remainder of his life and may be denied his vote only if the Lords later vote to exclude or the Commons votes to sustain an impeachment.

So Pavel was Lord Young when his father was Earl of North Hollow and he did sit in the House of Lords. Then he became Earl of North Hollow when his father died and Stefan (the older of his brothers) became Lord Young.

penny wrote:Thanks for that. To be honest, I always thought Pavel actually was a Lord because of his incessant bragging and because everyone seemed to show him deference. But I could have been wrong as I can hardly claim to be anywhere near an expert on English government. I can hardly pass for being average. And when it is explained to me it oftentimes confuses me more. I can understand the most convoluted legal documents easier than the British government. I simply love the English though! Been in love with many an English girl.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Thanks for that. To be honest, I always thought Pavel actually was a Lord because of his incessant bragging and because everyone seemed to show him deference. But I could have been wrong as I can hardly claim to be anywhere near an expert on English government. I can hardly pass for being average. And when it is explained to me it oftentimes confuses me more. I can understand the most convoluted legal documents easier than the British government. I simply love the English though! Been in love with many an English girl.

As the heir apparent, Pavel Young would have acted like a Lord; no matter what his actual title was.

Please stop saying this is English Government, because it does NOT conform to the House of Lords in Great Britain; for one thing the British system always included Bishops from the Church of England in their House of Lords. Also I can find no mention of cadet seats such as occur in the House of Lords in Manticore. Finally, as you pointed out, the British system is tending to phase out inherited seats.

Yes, the author took inspiration from the British system; but more closely from the time of the Napoleonic Wars (Hornblower in Space). But even so, there are differences and it is just confusing to mislabel things.