The Cat and the Canine

Theemile wrote:

penny wrote:
(re comment about cat vs dog people)

Interesting. Now that you've mentioned it, I don't recall David ever mentioning a dog. His big Maine cat has come up a time or two. And those things can get as big as some dogs. But, you're right, the author's affinity or lack thereof for canines may play an integral part of whether a canine will ever make it into storyline. Even though that particular friendship seems to be inevitable.

(snip)

Didn't Honor or Stephanie have a Dog when they got inoto trouble in the bush, then met a tree cat?

You are thinking of Cordelia Schardt-Cordova in the first chapter of _A New Clan_ (said chapter was published earlier as "Heart of Stone" in the anthology _Give Me LibertyCon_).

Is it possible that a cat and a canine can learn to communicate? Dogs can learn a lot of commands given to it by its owner. Can dogs learn a little sign language? At least enough gestures. A dog can certainly understand pointing. I had a dog that would understand to go to bed simply by me pointing. And a tree cat should know if he is getting through to a dog. <No, he does not understand yet, he is confused.>

penny wrote:Is it possible that a cat and a canine can learn to communicate? Dogs can learn a lot of commands given to it by its owner. Can dogs learn a little sign language? At least enough gestures. A dog can certainly understand pointing. I had a dog that would understand to go to bed simply by me pointing. And a tree cat should know if he is getting through to a dog. <No, he does not understand yet, he is confused.>

I'm confident this could be possible. Some guard dogs and assitance dogs are trained for non-verbal signals. Also, they react to body language of humans and other dogs. And as far as I know, cats can actually produce some range of noises with their mouth (including Nimitz' war cry), it's just not enough to develop a fully fledged oral language, or mimic human "mouth noises" enough to speak their languages. Those noise commands could be very useful when the dog is not watching the cat, or out of sight (around the corner, other room, out in the forest).

So I think a dog which recognizes a treecat as its superior could also be trained to follow her commands.

And cats are clearly intelligent enough to learn to interpret dogs body language, as humans do.

On the other hand, dogs are not on the same level of conciousness, so they'll always be restricted to a level of communicating basic feelings, needs and following orders, similar to the communication between humans and dogs.

markusschaber wrote:

penny wrote:Is it possible that a cat and a canine can learn to communicate? Dogs can learn a lot of commands given to it by its owner. Can dogs learn a little sign language? At least enough gestures. A dog can certainly understand pointing. I had a dog that would understand to go to bed simply by me pointing. And a tree cat should know if he is getting through to a dog. <No, he does not understand yet, he is confused.>

I'm confident this could be possible. Some guard dogs and assitance dogs are trained for non-verbal signals. Also, they react to body language of humans and other dogs. And as far as I know, cats can actually produce some range of noises with their mouth (including Nimitz' war cry), it's just not enough to develop a fully fledged oral language, or mimic human "mouth noises" enough to speak their languages. Those noise commands could be very useful when the dog is not watching the cat, or out of sight (around the corner, other room, out in the forest).

So I think a dog which recognizes a treecat as its superior could also be trained to follow her commands.

And cats are clearly intelligent enough to learn to interpret dogs body language, as humans do.

On the other hand, dogs are not on the same level of conciousness, so they'll always be restricted to a level of communicating basic feelings, needs and following orders, similar to the communication between humans and dogs.

Interesting. You brought up a lot I hadn't even thought of. I wasn't sure whether cats could make other noises beyond their rudimentary "bleek" and their formidable war cry. If they can make noises then that certainly opens the door a bit further, although I already agree that it should be possible. I also had not considered that dogs are formally taught silent commands! Brilliant observation.

Clearly dogs are not on the same level of consciousness, but I also think there is a wide gap between the intellect, therefore the consciousness, of certain dog breeds. As a matter of fact, the animal kingdom can sense things that humans cannot. Like an earthquake coming. Like a pregnant woman who has developed a problem with her unborn baby. Like a man who is close to having a heart attack, etc. The amazing list goes on. That ability along the with certain breeds might facilitate a deeper communication. Nice post!

It has come to be known as the Hemingway cat, but some cats are born with an extra toe.

Cats with extra toes have a genetic mutation passed down through a dominant gene from one of the parents. Polydactyly can appear in any breed, but it has been noticed that Maine Coon cats tend to have higher chances of inheriting this trait.

IINM, the author has a Maine Coon. Anyone know if it is polydactyl? And whether it had anything to do with Nimitz?

I grew up on an Australian sheep station (ranch). With 4,000 sheep you used dogs to herd them, both in the paddock and the yard. Border collies and kelpies (local red dog) were the pick.
The good ones understood many verbal and non verbal commands, and were worth good money. So I'm sure that they would have a useful level of communication with a treecat.

I grew up on an Australian sheep station (ranch). With 4,000 sheep you used dogs to herd them, both in the paddock and the yard. Border collies and kelpies (local red dog) were the pick.
The good ones understood many verbal and non verbal commands, and were worth good money. So I'm sure that they would have a useful level of communication with a treecat.

Daryl wrote:I grew up on an Australian sheep station (ranch). With 4,000 sheep you used dogs to herd them, both in the paddock and the yard. Border collies and kelpies (local red dog) were the pick.
The good ones understood many verbal and non verbal commands, and were worth good money. So I'm sure that they would have a useful level of communication with a treecat.

Thanks Daryl. I was trying to think of which dog breed would be better suited to learn to communicate with treecats. It certainly should have been intuitive that sheepdogs would be smart enough to do so. Sheep dogs are smart enough to direct traffic.

Daryl wrote:Some say that you are either a dog person or a cat person.
If that is true then RFC and Larry Niven are both cat people.
RFC because of the treecats, and very little mention of dogs in his books.
Larry Niven because of the Kzinti, also little mention of dogs, and the claim that with carnivores baring your teeth in a smile is seen as a threat never a sign of happiness. The broad smiles of my dogs over the years when they were happy, indicates that Larry didn't know dogs.

Out of curiosity, I did a search for " dog" in the books up through Mission of Honor. There are plenty of yard-dogs and guard-dogs, but those are always people. There are many expressions that use the word "dog", but no actual canine. The only hit on an actual canine came in a snippet about the people examining the captured SLNS Leonhard Euler from Uncompromising Honor:

Commander Bill Knight sounded more than a little sour, although that was scarcely Dimas’s fault. In fact, Knight liked Dimas quite a bit more than an evaluating officer was supposed to admit to a midshipman on his snotty cruise. Dimas was smart and competent . . . and so bouncy he reminded Knight irresistibly of a labradour retriever he’d had when he was a kid himself. That dog had been smart, too . . . and despite what some people might think was possible, he’d definitely had a sense of humor.

tlb wrote:

Daryl wrote:Some say that you are either a dog person or a cat person.
If that is true then RFC and Larry Niven are both cat people.
RFC because of the treecats, and very little mention of dogs in his books.
Larry Niven because of the Kzinti, also little mention of dogs, and the claim that with carnivores baring your teeth in a smile is seen as a threat never a sign of happiness. The broad smiles of my dogs over the years when they were happy, indicates that Larry didn't know dogs.

Out of curiosity, I did a search for " dog" in the books up through Mission of Honor. There are plenty of yard-dogs and guard-dogs, but those are always people. There are many expressions that use the word "dog", but no actual canine. The only hit on an actual canine came in a snippet about the people examining the captured SLNS Leonhard Euler from Uncompromising Honor

You missed the reference to Alfred Harrington's golden retriever in chapter two of _The Honor of the Queen_ (it was a flashback to Honor's childhood though). Of course, it is a different Weber series, but there are several enhanced rottweilers in _Heirs of Empire_