Sally goes rogue

penny wrote:For instance, would it be considered going rogue if she "commandeered" certain units to make an unscheduled visit to a system before the rats launched the LDs? When units are commandeered, does not the crew come with it?

Without standing orders which directed or at least authorised her to take such actions, yes.

Just like that one time she took a SD(P) to visit Chien-lu Anderman at an IAN fleet base in order to obtain a de facto ceasefire/truce which then freed her hands to concentrate upon the suspected Havenite threat. IIRC, Janacek was furious about that, but his First Space Lord endorsed it and war breaking out with Haven proved her right.

Going by Honor's character and past actions, she only goes "rogue" when she's making a calculated gamble on behalf of Manticore and, in case the gamble fails, sets things up so she could have been disavowed.

That is no longer possible after the Battle of Sol made her the most (in)famous person in and around League space.

penny wrote:You got the wrong idea. A huge fleet can exist in isolation long enough. They do that every time they go out on a mission. However, Sally has gone rogue for one very particular mission. She already knows how much firepower she needs. She is going to kick the back door in in some system. Sally intends to make this a very short and very victorious engagement. She isn't interested in going rogue as a career.

Let's look at Galton here. In order to know how much firepower she needed, Manticore had to carry out a thorough preliminary reconnaissance. Then it had to fill dozens of military-spec fast freighters with millions of missile pods. We don't know how many weeks or months away Galton was, so there needs to be more freighters with spare hydrogen, air and all other consumables.

Do you expect the target to fight back? Then you need to add repair ships with spare parts and hospital ships. Do you expect there to be a ground occupation afterwards? Now you need to loop the Army and Marines in and organise troop transports. If you want to collect what evidence isn't immediately destroyed the minute you cross the hyper limit, you probably want a bunch of special investigators - the only significant source of those is to bring along a large number of civilians: PIs, detectives, auditors and so on.

Now your assault fleet and its fleet train are so large that it's going to need a decent screen of lighter hyper-capable vessels. Those do not sit around; you have to recall them from their regular interstellar missions.

D-Day would have failed if Eisenhower suddenly attacked Omaha beach with a single Corps and left the rest of the team back home.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Mercenaries are a part of Honorverse Politics in 1920 PD - The PNiE was acting as mercenaries, and was working as a mercenary force registered in the Mercenary Clearing house on Mesa.

However, some polities didn't allow private military forces in the space (Silesia)... but space is big.

Good point - though I'm not sure we can necessarily look to the PNE to judge the general legality of mercenaries.

After all, they were being used in a MAlign attempt at an illegal genocide mission against Torch -- already blatantly illegal; so I doubt any further illegality around hiring of mercs would both either side in that little contract.

The bigger take away here is there is a mercenary clearing house that bonds mercs, offers a place to post jobs, and makes the connections between potential employers and merc groups. If it wasn't a common occurrence (and there wern't many Mercs) it wouldn't exist.

Theemile wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Mercenaries are a part of Honorverse Politics in 1920 PD - The PNiE was acting as mercenaries, and was working as a mercenary force registered in the Mercenary Clearing house on Mesa.

However, some polities didn't allow private military forces in the space (Silesia)... but space is big.

Jonathan_S wrote:Good point - though I'm not sure we can necessarily look to the PNE to judge the general legality of mercenaries.

After all, they were being used in a MAlign attempt at an illegal genocide mission against Torch -- already blatantly illegal; so I doubt any further illegality around hiring of mercs would both either side in that little contract.

The bigger take away here is there is a mercenary clearing house that bonds mercs, offers a place to post jobs, and makes the connections between potential employers and merc groups. If it wasn't a common occurrence (and there wern't many Mercs) it wouldn't exist.

Excellent point - I'd forgotten about that clearing house.

munroburton wrote:

penny wrote:For instance, would it be considered going rogue if she "commandeered" certain units to make an unscheduled visit to a system before the rats launched the LDs? When units are commandeered, does not the crew come with it?

Without standing orders which directed or at least authorised her to take such actions, yes.

Not sure I can agree with that. Honor's rank is effectively Honor's authorization. We are discussing the Salamander. Honor has always had a sixth sense. And it has never been wrong. Well... ?

The first time I became aware of her sixth sense was when it kicked in right in the middle of her maiden voyage to the Basilisk System. If Honor commandeers a fleet, it is because she senses that something is amiss, and that something needs to be done. At the end of the day, Beth's government is going to back Honor's actions as much as she can.

Honor choosing to commandeer instead of outright steal the units she needs is skirting the line. She is helping Beth, her government and Navy to help her. Honor would be giving them something to work with.

The RMN affords its officers a bit of autonomy in the field. That is something Haven's navy once lacked. Being trusted to the point of being able to make your own decisions on the spot affords a lot of leeway in which to properly secure your area of operation. There is at least a nominal amount of built-in confidence the admiralty inherently makes clear. It can backfire, sure, but that is why the Navy has to be sure they do not promote idiots.

munroburton wrote:Just like that one time she took a SD(P) to visit Chien-lu Anderman at an IAN fleet base in order to obtain a de facto ceasefire/truce which then freed her hands to concentrate upon the suspected Havenite threat. IIRC, Janacek was furious about that, but his First Space Lord endorsed it and war breaking out with Haven proved her right.

You have a point. Of course. But as you said, Honor's decision proved to be the right thing for her to do.

The take away here is two-fold. Honor knew what she had to do. She has always been a no-nonsense officer. She also knew that Janacek called the shots and he hated her. Yet, that did not stop Honor from doing her duty. This mission will not have a Janacek to answer to.

Honor is no idiot. She really does have a sixth sense. And everyone trusts it. The notion reminds me of an amusing exchange aboard the Enterprise.

Kirk : Mr. Spock, have you accounted for the variable mass of whales and water in your time re-entry program?

Spock : Mr. Scott cannot give me exact figures, Admiral, so... I will make a guess.

Kirk : A guess? You, Spock? That's extraordinary.

Spock : [to Dr. McCoy] I don't think he understands.

McCoy : No, Spock. He means that he feels safer about your guesses than most other people's facts.

Spock : Then you're saying...

[pause]

Spock : It is a compliment?

McCoy : It is.

Spock : Ah. Then, I will try to make the best guess I can.

McCoy : Please do.

The Navy, the Admiralty, her crew, her peers, even the Queen herself has always trusted Honor's guesses more than they trust their own.

munroburton wrote:Going by Honor's character and past actions, she only goes "rogue" when she's making a calculated gamble on behalf of Manticore and, in case the gamble fails, sets things up so she could have been disavowed.

Exactly! It is her modus operandi. What makes this gamble any different?

munroburton wrote:That is no longer possible after the Battle of Sol made her the most (in)famous person in and around League space.

But of course she is not the most infamous person to anyone in the League who is honest and who has half-a-brain -- which includes anyone who realizes that Honor's attack on the Sol System was metered and muted. Even if they didn't outright say, I am sure that at the end of the day, they were thankful. I fail to see how League Space would matter here, at the end of the day. The League is blind as a bat. Perhaps you should elaborate, please?

munroburton wrote:

penny wrote:You got the wrong idea. A huge fleet can exist in isolation long enough. They do that every time they go out on a mission. However, Sally has gone rogue for one very particular mission. She already knows how much firepower she needs. She is going to kick the back door in in some system. Sally intends to make this a very short and very victorious engagement. She isn't interested in going rogue as a career.

Let's look at Galton here. In order to know how much firepower she needed, Manticore had to carry out a thorough preliminary reconnaissance. Then it had to fill dozens of military-spec fast freighters with millions of missile pods. We don't know how many weeks or months away Galton was, so there needs to be more freighters with spare hydrogen, air and all other consumables.

Do you expect the target to fight back? Then you need to add repair ships with spare parts and hospital ships. Do you expect there to be a ground occupation afterwards? Now you need to loop the Army and Marines in and organise troop transports. If you want to collect what evidence isn't immediately destroyed the minute you cross the hyper limit, you probably want a bunch of special investigators - the only significant source of those is to bring along a large number of civilians: PIs, detectives, auditors and so on.

Now your assault fleet and its fleet train are so large that it's going to need a decent screen of lighter hyper-capable vessels. Those do not sit around; you have to recall them from their regular interstellar missions.

D-Day would have failed if Eisenhower suddenly attacked Omaha beach with a single Corps and left the rest of the team back home.

If Honor attempts to mobilize a force that large, it will be difficult for her to maintain ... Operational Security ... from her own navy!

Again, Honor is no idiot. The Salamander is even less of an idiot. Obviously Honor knows something that must be acted upon on the spot. She will not be skipping into an unknown system trying to conquer it.

If Honor feels like a certain mission is within her abilities and firepower, even as a Fleet Admiral, I won't dare doubt her.

YMMV aboard a streak drive.

penny wrote:

munroburton wrote:Going by Honor's character and past actions, she only goes "rogue" when she's making a calculated gamble on behalf of Manticore and, in case the gamble fails, sets things up so she could have been disavowed.

Exactly! It is her modus operandi. What makes this gamble any different?

munroburton wrote:That is no longer possible after the Battle of Sol made her the most (in)famous person in and around League space.

But of course she is not the most infamous person to anyone in the League who is honest and who has half-a-brain -- which includes anyone who realizes that Honor's attack on the Sol System was metered and muted. Even if they didn't outright say, I am sure that at the end of the day, they were thankful. I fail to see how League Space would matter here, at the end of the day. The League is blind as a bat. Perhaps you should elaborate, please?

Whether it's fame or infamy is immaterial. The point is she's the most well-known face throughout the vast majority of human space because of the Harrington Ultimatum. There are now billions of human beings who think of her whenever the subject of Manticore comes up and vice versa. Star nations we've never heard of on the other side of the League have intelligence files on her thicker than the ones they've got for Manticore(in which Elizabeth III is allotted half a page - using an awful picture from when she was fifteen years old).

If the purpose of a "rogue gambit" was to protect Manticore from diplomatic blowback in case of a military failure, then there's no point attempting it anymore. It isn't going to convince anyone. She can still make calculated gambles without orders, but Manticore can't feign surprise and wash their hands of Honor so easily. They know what they're getting if they give her a spacegoing command and some crap hits the rotary impeller: an aggressive reaction which protects Manticoran(and allied) interests.

The trade-off is that Honor Harrington has become Manticore's strongest diplomat. Anywhere she's sent is immediately upon notice that Manticore considers its interests there imperative. They know they can accept her to be speaking for Manticore(et al) in a way few Admirals and no Captains ever could. We already saw this play out when she went to Haven to negotiate.

munroburton wrote:Are you a Solarian? Some of them definitely believe the whole GA is made up of rogue star nations. Guess who they think rules it all from the spotlit shadows anyway.

The treecats?

penny wrote:

munroburton wrote:Going by Honor's character and past actions, she only goes "rogue" when she's making a calculated gamble on behalf of Manticore and, in case the gamble fails, sets things up so she could have been disavowed.

Exactly! It is her modus operandi. What makes this gamble any different?

munroburton wrote:That is no longer possible after the Battle of Sol made her the most (in)famous person in and around League space.

But of course she is not the most infamous person to anyone in the League who is honest and who has half-a-brain -- which includes anyone who realizes that Honor's attack on the Sol System was metered and muted. Even if they didn't outright say, I am sure that at the end of the day, they were thankful. I fail to see how League Space would matter here, at the end of the day. The League is blind as a bat. Perhaps you should elaborate, please?

munroburton wrote:Whether it's fame or infamy is immaterial. The point is she's the most well-known face throughout the vast majority of human space because of the Harrington Ultimatum. There are now billions of human beings who think of her whenever the subject of Manticore comes up and vice versa. Star nations we've never heard of on the other side of the League have intelligence files on her thicker than the ones they've got for Manticore(in which Elizabeth III is allotted half a page - using an awful picture from when she was fifteen years old).

munroburton wrote:If the purpose of a "rogue gambit" was to protect Manticore from diplomatic blowback in case of a military failure, then there's no point attempting it anymore. It isn't going to convince anyone. She can still make calculated gambles without orders, but Manticore can't feign surprise and wash their hands of Honor so easily. They know what they're getting if they give her a spacegoing command and some crap hits the rotary impeller: an aggressive reaction which protects Manticoran(and allied) interests.

The trade-off is that Honor Harrington has become Manticore's strongest diplomat. Anywhere she's sent is immediately upon notice that Manticore considers its interests there imperative. They know they can accept her to be speaking for Manticore(et al) in a way few Admirals and no Captains ever could. We already saw this play out when she went to Haven to negotiate.

What has changed? That thick file on her has been traveling along the grapevine as long as when Honor was a kid. Hell, the exploits of Sally of the Spaceways even reached Hell. She was a god in Hell. They just thought she'd be taller and not so emaciated. Although she did have a demon. The point is her entire file is nothing new under the sun.

But it sounds as if you think Honor can't legitimately go rogue. You don't really believe that do you? Half the galaxy wouldn't doubt it for a moment that she is capable of it.

It doesn't matter. Plausible deniability. As long as Manticore backs her, because they knew Honor did go rogue. They also know how angry she was. If Honor gets angry enough to burn down the entire fucking galaxy to smoke the MAlign out, she will. In the end, as long as the job got done, Honor will be pleased. People like Zilwicki will understand.

And... please don't get it twisted. If the mission was successful, Beth and all of Manticore will be thankful and indebted to Honor again, even if they have no choice but to throw her in the brig. They'll simply drum her out of the navy.

penny wrote:For instance, would it be considered going rogue if she "commandeered" certain units to make an unscheduled visit to a system before the rats launched the LDs? When units are commandeered, does not the crew come with it?

munroburton wrote:Without standing orders which directed or at least authorised her to take such actions, yes.

Just like that one time she took a SD(P) to visit Chien-lu Anderman at an IAN fleet base in order to obtain a de facto ceasefire/truce which then freed her hands to concentrate upon the suspected Havenite threat. IIRC, Janacek was furious about that, but his First Space Lord endorsed it and war breaking out with Haven proved her right.

Going by Honor's character and past actions, she only goes "rogue" when she's making a calculated gamble on behalf of Manticore and, in case the gamble fails, sets things up so she could have been disavowed.

That is no longer possible after the Battle of Sol made her the most (in)famous person in and around League space.

penny wrote:You got the wrong idea. A huge fleet can exist in isolation long enough. They do that every time they go out on a mission. However, Sally has gone rogue for one very particular mission. She already knows how much firepower she needs. She is going to kick the back door in in some system. Sally intends to make this a very short and very victorious engagement. She isn't interested in going rogue as a career.

munroburton wrote:Let's look at Galton here. In order to know how much firepower she needed, Manticore had to carry out a thorough preliminary reconnaissance. Then it had to fill dozens of military-spec fast freighters with millions of missile pods. We don't know how many weeks or months away Galton was, so there needs to be more freighters with spare hydrogen, air and all other consumables.

Do you expect the target to fight back? Then you need to add repair ships with spare parts and hospital ships. Do you expect there to be a ground occupation afterwards? Now you need to loop the Army and Marines in and organise troop transports. If you want to collect what evidence isn't immediately destroyed the minute you cross the hyper limit, you probably want a bunch of special investigators - the only significant source of those is to bring along a large number of civilians: PIs, detectives, auditors and so on.

Now your assault fleet and its fleet train are so large that it's going to need a decent screen of lighter hyper-capable vessels. Those do not sit around; you have to recall them from their regular interstellar missions.

D-Day would have failed if Eisenhower suddenly attacked Omaha beach with a single Corps and left the rest of the team back home.

Do forgive the amusement I get out of this post. At least I share.

What comes to mind is what she did to a Q-ship with a Light Cruiser. With a raped... Light Cruiser. You really think she needs more than what she got with Grand Fleet?

And do consider. This attack will be using the strategy and tactics that she developed. What does that mean?

OK! I'll say it!!!

IF THE POWERS THAT BE HAD CARRIED OUT HER TACTICS AT GALTON, NOBODY WOULD HAVE DIED!!!

Upon hypering in system, she will immediately fire upon any damn thing that she pleases.

penny wrote:Do forgive the amusement I get out of this post. At least I share.

What comes to mind is what she did to a Q-ship with a Light Cruiser. With a raped... Light Cruiser. You really think she needs more than what she got with Grand Fleet?

And do consider. This attack will be using the strategy and tactics that she developed. What does that mean?

OK! I'll say it!!!

IF THE POWERS THAT BE HAD CARRIED OUT HER TACTICS AT GALTON, NOBODY WOULD HAVE DIED!!!

Upon hypering in system, she will immediately fire upon any damn thing that she pleases.

I don't know what you've been reading. She didn't go rogue in Basilisk - on the contrary, she followed her orders to the very letter AND spirit, which is more than any previous officer assigned to Basilisk station did.

Honor was fully in command at Galton, they used her tactics and strategy. Lots of people died. A brand new character was the one pushing for a hyper in-shoot-hyper out attack which would have minimised Alliance casualties.

Pardon me, but you've always seemed to struggle with the concept that characters over time are different, with changed options. The 1901 Commander could go rogue in ways that the 1924 Fleet Admiral-Ambassador Plenipotentiary-Duchess-Steadholder(and billionaire) cannot.

That young Commander being thrown out of the Navy confines the disgrace to the Commander, her treecat and parents. The Fleet Admiral-Ambassador Plenipotentiary-Duchess-Steadholder going rogue hurts a lot more - her husband, her children, her head-of-state friends, her siblings and every officer she trained as well as the Star Empire's public reputation for raising her so highly. Grayson politics are complicated too - the oppositon to Benjamin's reforms have always been waiting for her to stumble.

It's like that time you claimed that Honor's "inner circle" comprised only of people who were with her at Basilisk. You forgot and excluded her husband by doing that, as well as Alice Truman, Michelle Henke and other people who only joined the journey in Honor of the Queen or later but nonetheless have unquestionably entered that inner circle.

You seem to also think that Honor is still the exactly same character she was at Basilisk.

penny wrote:What has changed?

Almost everything!

munroburton wrote:

penny wrote:Do forgive the amusement I get out of this post. At least I share.

What comes to mind is what she did to a Q-ship with a Light Cruiser. With a raped... Light Cruiser. You really think she needs more than what she got with Grand Fleet?

And do consider. This attack will be using the strategy and tactics that she developed. What does that mean?

OK! I'll say it!!!

IF THE POWERS THAT BE HAD CARRIED OUT HER TACTICS AT GALTON, NOBODY WOULD HAVE DIED!!!

Upon hypering in system, she will immediately fire upon any damn thing that she pleases.

I don't know what you've been reading. She didn't go rogue in Basilisk - on the contrary, she followed her orders to the very letter AND spirit, which is more than any previous officer assigned to Basilisk station did.

Agreed. She has always carried out her duties to the letter AND spirit. Sally in the spirit is what is dangerous. Dunno how the Basilisk System got brought into this. I never said she went rogue then. Well, Young may disagree, and her dissenters may, as well. What the hell.

munroburton wrote:Honor was fully in command at Galton, they used her tactics and strategy. Lots of people died. A brand new character was the one pushing for a hyper in-shoot-hyper out attack which would have minimised Alliance casualties.

Honor was in command, yes. But her tactics were not fully adopted. Honor wanted to hyper in guns blazing and fire on the communications platforms immediately. That decision was over ruled. Why it was over ruled I haven't a clue. Why leave the enemy's communications intact?

munroburton wrote:Pardon me, but you've always seemed to struggle with the concept that characters over time are different, with changed options. The 1901 Commander could go rogue in ways that the 1924 Fleet Admiral-Ambassador Plenipotentiary-Duchess-Steadholder(and billionaire) cannot.

That young Commander being thrown out of the Navy confines the disgrace to the Commander, her treecat and parents. The Fleet Admiral-Ambassador Plenipotentiary-Duchess-Steadholder going rogue hurts a lot more - her husband, her children, her head-of-state friends, her siblings and every officer she trained as well as the Star Empire's public reputation for raising her so highly. Grayson politics are complicated too - the oppositon to Benjamin's reforms have always been waiting for her to stumble.

I didn't realize that I struggled with that. Of course people change. It is more likely they grow -- for better or for worse. However, a character's inner character and true colors never change. Rarely anyways. Honor's colors may have become metered or muted to "fit in" but her true colors will always shine through in the end, because there has never been anything wrong with Honor's true colors.

Yes, I agree, she has to worry about hurting a lot of people politically. But I seriously doubt that that will stop her if she feels going rogue is the only answer. It is better for all of the people concerned to be embarrassed and still alive, rather than dead and gone. Honor will always do what needs to be done to protect the Star Kingdom and her loved ones. Politics be damned.

munroburton wrote:It's like that time you claimed that Honor's "inner circle" comprised only of people who were with her at Basilisk. You forgot and excluded her husband by doing that, as well as Alice Truman, Michelle Henke and other people who only joined the journey in Honor of the Queen or later but nonetheless have unquestionably entered that inner circle.

You seem to also think that Honor is still the exactly same character she was at Basilisk.

My remark about Honor's inner circle is still causing problems I see. Dunno why the notion is so difficult. In context, I was referring to Honor's most intimate crew. Her most intimate crew are the people who were with her 'way back when' it all began. The crew that goes way way back. Of course her inner circle grew, but Henke and Hamish were never part of her crew. Besides, Honor and Henke probably have the most intimate inner circle just between the two of them. Honor's first kiss may have come from Henke. They were just young girls at the Academy. And young girls commonly experiment on each other for kissing. Can't get any more intimate than that. Well, other than her husband. But, within context, no crew will be as close as the crew aboard the little Light Cruiser. They were all Fearless and forged in the heat of battle.

penny wrote:What has changed?

munroburton wrote:Almost everything!

Politics has changed. Responsibility has changed. Her rank has changed. Honor will continue to do what needs to be done when the caca hits the fan.

No, she isn't the same person she was at Basilisk. I don't think she had any friends other than Henke and the Treecats on her way to Basilisk. She didn't have the rank that she has now either. And she had barely the firepower to protect her Kingdom. Now, she doesn't have to prove herself. And now she has the utmost in respect. And a Grand Fleet.