SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superiority

As misaligned as it may be, I don't think the MAlign is going to give them much choice, if the efficacy of the LDs is as I think it is. The SLN and the GA are going to need each other. The beating of the clock is quickening. The countdown is running out. The LDs are near completion. If they hatch, game over.

penny wrote:As misaligned as it may be, I don't think the MAlign is going to give them much choice, if the efficacy of the LDs is as I think it is. The SLN and the GA are going to need each other. The beating of the clock is quickening. The countdown is running out. The LDs are near completion. If they hatch, game over.

Which of course raises the question of exactly how they will be used. Which we debated to death in other threads, ending with ‘future cloudy, ask again later’.

penny wrote:As misaligned as it may be, I don't think the MAlign is going to give them much choice, if the efficacy of the LDs is as I think it is. The SLN and the GA are going to need each other. The beating of the clock is quickening. The countdown is running out. The LDs are near completion. If they hatch, game over.

And the moment the LD's are used, the whole universe will know that the MAlign still exists and that Manticore was right, and the hunt will start again - but on much larger scale.

Here's a prediction: The LD's are the Honorverse's submarines, what happened to the submarines historically will reflect what happens to the LD's in Honorverse. Some success when first deployed, then hunted to extinction later on.

penny wrote:As misaligned as it may be, I don't think the MAlign is going to give them much choice, if the efficacy of the LDs is as I think it is. The SLN and the GA are going to need each other. The beating of the clock is quickening. The countdown is running out. The LDs are near completion. If they hatch, game over.

Joat42 wrote:And the moment the LD's are used, the whole universe will know that the MAlign still exists and that Manticore was right, and the hunt will start again - but on much larger scale.

Here's a prediction: The LD's are the Honorverse's submarines, what happened to the submarines historically will reflect what happens to the LD's in Honorverse. Some success when first deployed, then hunted to extinction later on.

Historically that was true for Germany's submarines in the Atlantic, but NOT for the US Navy's subs in the Pacific. The problem was that the Allies had radio direction finding and the 10 centimeter radar (among other things) and the Japanese did not.

So comparing the LD's to historical submarines is problematic, since there is not currently a detection device to find them. Will there eventually be? Maybe, but to be effective it will have to find them before they are in energy weapon range.

I agree that proving that the Malign did not end with Galton is an important point. Also, it is ridiculous to say that the game is over when the LD's are ready: this is Honor Harrington's universe and NOT the Malign's universe

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:As misaligned as it may be, I don't think the MAlign is going to give them much choice, if the efficacy of the LDs is as I think it is. The SLN and the GA are going to need each other. The beating of the clock is quickening. The countdown is running out. The LDs are near completion. If they hatch, game over.

Joat42 wrote:And the moment the LD's are used, the whole universe will know that the MAlign still exists and that Manticore was right, and the hunt will start again - but on much larger scale.

Here's a prediction: The LD's are the Honorverse's submarines, what happened to the submarines historically will reflect what happens to the LD's in Honorverse. Some success when first deployed, then hunted to extinction later on.

Historically that was true for Germany's submarines in the Atlantic, but NOT for the US Navy's subs in the Pacific. The problem was that the Allies had radio direction finding and the 10 centimeter radar (among other things) and the Japanese did not.

So comparing the LD's to historical submarines is problematic, since there is not currently a detection device to find them. Will there eventually be? Maybe, but to be effective it will have to find them before they are in energy weapon range.

I agree that proving that the Malign did not end with Galton is an important point. Also, it is ridiculous to say that the game is over when the LD's are ready: this is Honor Harrington's universe and NOT the Malign's universe

Here, here! Well said. This is what I meant about being a Manticoran fanboy. The good guys will always win out in the end. How RFC will do it will be, as always, entertaining, and quite probably coming in from an entirely unexpected direction, and be as much of a surprise to all of us as it will be to those MAlign no goodniks..

I hope to see a spider ship detection device or strategy to be developed, and then hopefully some new devious weapons technology that will hamper MAlign's intent to dominate galactic warfare. And, let us not forget the intelligent application of the new strategies and weapons by our plucky heroes.

kzt wrote:

penny wrote:As misaligned as it may be, I don't think the MAlign is going to give them much choice, if the efficacy of the LDs is as I think it is. The SLN and the GA are going to need each other. The beating of the clock is quickening. The countdown is running out. The LDs are near completion. If they hatch, game over.

Which of course raises the question of exactly how they will be used. Which we debated to death in other threads, ending with ‘future cloudy, ask again later’.

True, but, somewhere in the middle of the debate - or either from the onset - we unanimously agreed that they are perfectly suited for infrastructure destruction. Even if they are simply used for that, game over.

For you naysayers it will still be Honor Harrington's universe. What's left of it.

I do not understand why someone keeps pointing out that the MA's existence will be proved with the maiden voyages of the LD. I don't think the MA is going to care about their existence being known while they are busy lighting birthday candles all around town. Do something about it if you can!

tlb wrote:Historically that was true for Germany's submarines in the Atlantic, but NOT for the US Navy's subs in the Pacific. The problem was that the Allies had radio direction finding and the 10 centimeter radar (among other things) and the Japanese did not.

So comparing the LD's to historical submarines is problematic, since there is not currently a detection device to find them. Will there eventually be? Maybe, but to be effective it will have to find them before they are in energy weapon range.

The Allies also spent more on anti-submarine escorts (I think that's even true as a percentage of their total military spending) plus they invested in scientific operational research on the most effective methods (formations, doctrine, techniques) for destroying enemy subs and protecting friendly ships from them (not quite identical goals)

Though in some ways if you want to analogize LennyDets to submarines they'd be more like the situation subs had in WWI - where (except around a few harbors) there weren't any sensors that could detect a sub after it submerged, and for about half the war they also lacks weapons that could effectively attack an submerged submarine -- even if you did somehow know where it was. (At least if if had submerged much below periscope depth -- at periscope depth it was potentially vulnerable to ramming or torpedoes)

Of course that's also a very imperfect analogy because LennyDets don't have the endurance limitations of WWI subs -- though they somewhat share their low speed (or rather low acceleration in the case of the LDs)

tlb wrote:So comparing the LD's to historical submarines is problematic, since there is not currently a detection device to find them. Will there eventually be? Maybe, but to be effective it will have to find them before they are in energy weapon range.

When submarines was first introduced there was no detection devices either. It wasn't until WWI when hydrophones and active sonar became technologically feasible which led to the British building early prototypes of sonar (ASDIC) in 1917 but it wasn't until 1922 they started mounting the refined versions on ships.

The comparison isn't 1-1, but we have to remember that rfc tend to borrow from history when writing his stories, which may well mean we will see the LD's used as commerce warfare against the GA's merchant marine to start with in the future.

tlb wrote:I agree that proving that the Malign did not end with Galton is an important point. Also, it is ridiculous to say that the game is over when the LD's are ready: this is Honor Harrington's universe and NOT the Malign's universe

The only thing that can make it a "game over" is that the MAlign can provide a knockout-punch to every other power out there that matters. That's a very tall order.

Joat42 wrote:The comparison isn't 1-1, but we have to remember that rfc tend to borrow from history when writing his stories, which may well mean we will see the LD's used as commerce warfare against the GA's merchant marine to start with in the future.

If the LD's are used as commerce raiders, this would mainly work by posting at the hyperlimit near the closest approach to a planet and blasting anything that arrives when they are most vulnerable. Anyone moving in hyperspace will either be traveling with a wedge or sails. In the case of sails, the LD has to be under sails also; so not invisible. in the case of a wedge, there is a possibility of a passing shot; but it is limited by the decreased detection ability compared to normal space. I hope we will soon see what the author choses to do.

tlb wrote:

Joat42 wrote:The comparison isn't 1-1, but we have to remember that rfc tend to borrow from history when writing his stories, which may well mean we will see the LD's used as commerce warfare against the GA's merchant marine to start with in the future.

If the LD's are used as commerce raiders, this would mainly work by posting at the hyperlimit near the closest approach to a planet and blasting anything that arrives when they are most vulnerable. Anyone moving in hyperspace will either be traveling with a wedge or sails. In the case of sails, the LD has to be under sails also; so not invisible. in the case of a wedge, there is a possibility of a passing shot; but it is limited by the decreased detection ability compared to normal space. I hope we will soon see what the author choses to do.

Commerce raiding can be done efficiently with BC or lower at a much lower cost. Just troll JUST outside the hyperlimit and bag everything that jumps in - and then jump out if anything too heavy attempts to engage you. Any why use a platform that can't rum down even a merchie if it has a head start, and why waste a G-torp on a merchie when any old missile will do. (cause if you don't ned to use a Gtorp, why use the only platforms that specialize in them?