Pissing off the folks in the home system (Sol/Terra)

I know that the mandarins and their policies didn't leave a lot of choice for the GA to end up reducing the infrastructure to dust bunnies in the home system, but isn't it going to create a LOT of hard feelings against the grand alliance once the solarians get over the initial shock? At least the ones that are there in the home system are concerned? Sure, they're going to find it a lot easier to rebuild given the resources available to them from the other ex-league systems, or at least easier than Manticore is going to have it. But still there's a lot of room for resentment against the GA, that might cause problems down the road if other like minded systems take their side.

Short Answer: Yes

Long Answer: They needed to do something to wake the masses up! If the Solly on the street didn't face any hardships, then they would have zero skin in the game for getting rid of the Mandarins and having their political system revamped. Joe Solly needed to understand what they had let the bureaucrats do and that there were repercussions for that choice. Destroy military infrastructure just annoys them and fills them with the desire to slap down the annoying neo-bard for having the gall to destroy/damage SLN property. Destroying most of the civilian infer structure as well means they can't just sit at home watching the TV, they need every hand to help rebuild and in doing so Joe Solly will actually get a dose of reality and realize things have changed and Sol is not the glorious beacon of enlightenment they believed.

Mycall4me wrote:I know that the mandarins and their policies didn't leave a lot of choice for the GA to end up reducing the infrastructure to dust bunnies in the home system, but isn't it going to create a LOT of hard feelings against the grand alliance once the solarians get over the initial shock? At least the ones that are there in the home system are concerned? Sure, they're going to find it a lot easier to rebuild given the resources available to them from the other ex-league systems, or at least easier than Manticore is going to have it. But still there's a lot of room for resentment against the GA, that might cause problems down the road if other like minded systems take their side.

I would tend to agree. The one thing the Sollies have more of than institutional arrogance is their institutional hatred for those damn pesky neobarbs. And why shouldn't they detest Manticore? Manticore cornered the market on trade!

And then they had the nerve and audacity to put them on restriction. Grounded. Punished like an adolescent teen by their parents who orders them to go to their room and not come out until further notice. What? Grounded by neobarbs?

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The good news for Manticore is they won't be the first to feel the new and improved lean and mean gorilla's wrath.

That upstart two-timing cheatin' Beowulf will get it first!

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But then, y'all already know how I feel about this subject.

In a lot of ways, the long term problem is going to be much worse on Manticore than the Sollies. The League member nations, even in their reduced renewed format still have significant resources, well beyond what Manticore has.

Manticore pulled all of its shipping out, which left a huge vacuum for the League systems to fill. And they will fill it, in time. Manticore won't be able to return to running everyone's shipping again.

As the League gets their warfighting abilities fully, or even mostly, up to snuff and gets their economies back in order with their own shipping and such, it's entirely possible that people in the League home systems will demand that their government put Manticore in its' place for its' heinous actions. The only thing which would stop such a motion (especially if it was egged on by the Onion) is the awareness that the MAlignment really does exist, and that the new League has new treaties with Manticore. But I don't see this as a real check on things which would stop stupidity from returning.

Fireflair wrote:In a lot of ways, the long term problem is going to be much worse on Manticore than the Sollies. The League member nations, even in their reduced renewed format still have significant resources, well beyond what Manticore has.

Manticore pulled all of its shipping out, which left a huge vacuum for the League systems to fill. And they will fill it, in time. Manticore won't be able to return to running everyone's shipping again.

As the League gets their warfighting abilities fully, or even mostly, up to snuff and gets their economies back in order with their own shipping and such, it's entirely possible that people in the League home systems will demand that their government put Manticore in its' place for its' heinous actions. The only thing which would stop such a motion (especially if it was egged on by the Onion) is the awareness that the MAlignment really does exist, and that the new League has new treaties with Manticore. But I don't see this as a real check on things which would stop stupidity from returning.

The heinous actions that occurred on Mesa have now been explained as the result of the same people that killed over 40 million on Beowulf. The further reporting of the changes that Mesa will continue to experience will eventually cancel out the remaining ill will toward the Grand Alliance over the defeat of Mesa.

The remaining "heinous" actions only occurred in the Earth System, most of the members of the League were not impacted. Only those with ties to the Navy and/or the big interstellar corporations will have felt the effects. The new Navy is now working with the Grand Alliance to shut down the remains of the slave trade. So a truly representative system might not feel any remorse for eliminating the power of the Mandarins, specially if the free press reports on what the Mandarins did to initiate the war and what was found at Galton.

Fireflair wrote:As the League gets their warfighting abilities fully, or even mostly, up to snuff and gets their economies back in order with their own shipping and such, it's entirely possible that people in the League home systems will demand that their government put Manticore in its' place for its' heinous actions. The only thing which would stop such a motion (especially if it was egged on by the Onion) is the awareness that the MAlignment really does exist, and that the new League has new treaties with Manticore. But I don't see this as a real check on things which would stop stupidity from returning.

Good point, but this is where the Harrington Doctrine comes in.

In one of the meetings with her, Honor laid down the doctrine for handling the League post-war. She said the GA had to peel systems off the League weakening any single polity, and create deep commercial ties with all of them. This limits revanchism and creates allies.

There will be pockets of dissatisfied Solarians, probably most of them in the Sol system. But there's little they could do if the GA has grown much stronger with other allies who would go to war with you due to mutual-defence treaties. It may also be economically counter-productive to attack one of your largest commercial partners.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Good point, but this is where the Harrington Doctrine comes in.

I do not think that we ever got to the point of the Harrington Doctrine kicking in, the war ended much too soon. Only that one region by Torch actually could be counted toward the Doctrine and they were inclined before the conflict began. There are also a few systems associated with Beowulf.

tlb wrote:I do not think that we ever got to the point of the Harrington Doctrine kicking in, the war ended much too soon. Only that one region by Torch actually could be counted toward the Doctrine and they were inclined before the conflict began. There are also a few systems associated with Beowulf.

Not really. You're thinking of the Maya region and, while that's true, I think you're making an extrapolation from lack of data. In fact, in TEiF, when the new SLN ONI chief, Chuck Gannon, was talking to F. Adm. Kingsford and mentions Maya and the Renaissance Factor, he's interrupted before talking about other conglomerations. So we don't know how many of those exist in or outside the League. Remember the OFS oppressed a lot of them, so they aren't likely to side with the League.

There are also all those systems that were targeted by Operation Buccaneer that will not side with the League on anything for the foreseeable future. Those also need economic help to rebuild their infrastructure, so prime pickings for the Doctrine.

We also know of only two systems seceding (Hypatia and Beowulf), but we know that the League shrunk. If the GA manages to move them to the "ally" column, strengthening economic, military and diplomatic ties, those can also help with the reconstruction of those others that were affected. It's even possible that many Core systems take this route, following Beowulf's lead, if they have the institutional memory to remember what the League should have been and what the Mandarins made of it.

tlb wrote:I do not think that we ever got to the point of the Harrington Doctrine kicking in, the war ended much too soon. Only that one region by Torch actually could be counted toward the Doctrine and they were inclined before the conflict began. There are also a few systems associated with Beowulf.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Not really. You're thinking of the Maya region and, while that's true, I think you're making an extrapolation from lack of data. In fact, in TEiF, when the new SLN ONI chief, Chuck Gannon, was talking to F. Adm. Kingsford and mentions Maya and the Renaissance Factor, he's interrupted before talking about other conglomerations. So we don't know how many of those exist in or outside the League. Remember the OFS oppressed a lot of them, so they aren't likely to side with the League.

There are also all those systems that were targeted by Operation Buccaneer that will not side with the League on anything for the foreseeable future. Those also need economic help to rebuild their infrastructure, so prime pickings for the Doctrine.

We also know of only two systems seceding (Hypatia and Beowulf), but we know that the League shrunk. If the GA manages to move them to the "ally" column, strengthening economic, military and diplomatic ties, those can also help with the reconstruction of those others that were affected. It's even possible that many Core systems take this route, following Beowulf's lead, if they have the institutional memory to remember what the League should have been and what the Mandarins made of it.

Nevertheless, the Harrington Doctrine was a plan on how to fight the war. Those systems that did secede did so either because of prior planning or because of Solarian actions. There was some interaction with the Maya Sector, but their secession was already in the works and not strictly because of Alliance actions. Basically the war ended too quickly for us to see the Doctrine put into practice.

Yes, there may be many systems in the Verge that will identify more with the Grand Alliance than the reconstructed League. However that will be outside the Doctrine, since it was conceived as a wartime expedient. You might say that it is a post war continuation, to whittle the League down to a size that would be easier to face in some future matchup. But except for those systems around Beowulf, who were subject to Operation Buccaneer, it is unlikely that any of the inner core will desert the League.

I think that the GA and their enlightened outlook and policies, will allow them to make friends in many places in both the verge and the shell. They might have a little trouble in SOME of the core systems if only bc of entrenched prejudice of neo barbs, especially upstart neo barbs that kicked the League's ass. But any core system that looks honestly at what the GA has, and how they represent themselves and their policies will surely gain traction towards friedly relations.