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Commodore Tremaine

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Re: Commodore Tremaine
Post by penny   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:23 am

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Captain Golding wrote:RN Commodores could be "big" or "small and in Nelson's day the flags were different.

Small was the senior Captain in a group or station. He remained Captain of his own Ship while having operational authority over the other vessels in the group or Station.

Large was the Junior Admiral. He had his flag Captain etc.

Neither rank was permanent - as some body else said its the Job not the career. So when the deployment was over the Broad Pennant (Of a Commodore) was lowered and the Officer was once more a Captain.

In the 20th Century Commodore was also the rank used for the Officer in charge of a Convoy, That said he was not in charge of the Escort. These were normally long service RNR Officers called back for the Duration.

Discussing CLAC's and LAC Wings, The RMN does not have a history of Fighting Small craft so no seperate rank structure for officers within the LAC Squadrons and Wings as the USN and FAA use. The First CLAC seemed to have a senior staff of Admiral's - ok when developing the Concept where all that experience is needed but not so good long term once the roles are understood. Since we don't have a Rank of Wing Commander then "Commodor" makes sense. Mind you we again end up with Captains (SG) giving orders to Commodores (CLAC). Note there is a lot of role definition between the Captain of a CVN and his CAG and the Admiral who is probably on board which defines authority and how it's used. (The Loss of HMS Glorious in WW2 is a fine example of when the Ship Captain does not understand and work well with his CAG (Not that they used that term)).

Tremaine's pathway does imply that he ended up in a backwater for too long. Not promoting successful LAC commanders into Destroyers seems to me a weakness that BuPers is not likly to suffer from. Still promotion up to "CAG" without real ship experience would be a significant weakness. Did Scotty insist on playing with his toys to long ? :->. Like Michelle it took an outside kick to rectify that.

A Captain in charge of a Destroyer is going to be responsable for far more independant action than any senior LAC commander on a CLAC. Even Depot LAC deployment probably don't result in the LAC commander being independant of higher authority. That experience is something that Scottie needed to show and probably had not.

Note that with Our current Naval Personel Sat Comms etc. mean that interms of freedom of action there is not a lot of difference between Naval Officers and Naval Air Force Officers (FAA USN USMC etc.) of a given rank. Something not true in the Honourverse. Promoting a Squadron Commander to command a CVN via a short commission in charge of an Oiler to learn ship handling does not change much at the higher levels where at least in a peace time navy it's all about man and political managment with a large chunk of logistics for a Destroyer Captain or a Squadron commander.

I suppose it is a disadvantage of clinging to Honor. But the advantage is they were kept alive. Now that I think of it, does Commodore represent the highest rank achieved by a member of Honor's inner Circle?

Well, except for myself. I reached Fleet Admiral as cthia. :D
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The artist formerly known as cthia.

Now I can talk in the third person.
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Re: Commodore Tremaine
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 6:03 am

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Highest? More like lowest. Judah Yanakov was up to High Admiral, with Alfredo Yu later replacing him. Alice Truman and Michelle Henke were both up to Vice Admiral. They're probably full Admirals now.

Representing the OG Fearless's crew, Alistair McKeon had made Rear Admiral. Mercedes Brigham is a Vice Admiral in the GSN. Samuel Webster a Rear Admiral(as of 1918; hasn't been mentioned since WoH).

There are more.
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Re: Commodore Tremaine
Post by penny   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 7:37 am

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munroburton wrote:Highest? More like lowest. Judah Yanakov was up to High Admiral, with Alfredo Yu later replacing him. Alice Truman and Michelle Henke were both up to Vice Admiral. They're probably full Admirals now.

Representing the OG Fearless's crew, Alistair McKeon had made Rear Admiral. Mercedes Brigham is a Vice Admiral in the GSN. Samuel Webster a Rear Admiral(as of 1918; hasn't been mentioned since WoH).

There are more.

I don't think so munroburton. None of those people are from Honor's most intimate inner circle. Except McKeon who I believe was already a Captain aboard HMS Fearless (CL-56) when Honor took over. I may be in error about McKeon's rank at the time.

See? That is a disadvantage of not beginning the series with On Basilisk Station.

Ah! Mercedes Brigham was with Honor aboard Fearless. Thanks munroburton.
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The artist formerly known as cthia.

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Re: Commodore Tremaine
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:28 am

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penny wrote:
munroburton wrote:Highest? More like lowest. Judah Yanakov was up to High Admiral, with Alfredo Yu later replacing him. Alice Truman and Michelle Henke were both up to Vice Admiral. They're probably full Admirals now.

Representing the OG Fearless's crew, Alistair McKeon had made Rear Admiral. Mercedes Brigham is a Vice Admiral in the GSN. Samuel Webster a Rear Admiral(as of 1918; hasn't been mentioned since WoH).

There are more.

I don't think so munroburton. None of those people are from Honor's most intimate inner circle. Except McKeon who I believe was already a Captain aboard HMS Fearless (CL-56) when Honor took over. I may be in error about McKeon's rank at the time.

See? That is a disadvantage of not beginning the series with On Basilisk Station.

Ah! Mercedes Brigham was with Honor aboard Fearless. Thanks munroburton.
He was "Lieutenant Commander McKeon, her new exec" in OBS -- which is a couple ranks short of Captain. By HotQ he'd been promoted one rank to Commander; and was captain of the destroyer Troubadour.

And Lieutenant Webster, while I guess he didn't get a lot of screen time in OBS, was Honor's communication officer and so was part of her bridge crew aboard Fearless during those events. But yeah, he didn't stay in her inner circle since he apparently got assigned elsewhere prior to HotQ (as a Lieutenant Joyce Metzinger is mentioned as Honor's comm officer in that book) and he showed up against on Admiral Sarnow's staff at Hancock before the start of the war.
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Re: Commodore Tremaine
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:52 pm

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penny wrote:
munroburton wrote:Highest? More like lowest. Judah Yanakov was up to High Admiral, with Alfredo Yu later replacing him. Alice Truman and Michelle Henke were both up to Vice Admiral. They're probably full Admirals now.

Representing the OG Fearless's crew, Alistair McKeon had made Rear Admiral. Mercedes Brigham is a Vice Admiral in the GSN. Samuel Webster a Rear Admiral(as of 1918; hasn't been mentioned since WoH).

There are more.

I don't think so munroburton. None of those people are from Honor's most intimate inner circle. Except McKeon who I believe was already a Captain aboard HMS Fearless (CL-56) when Honor took over. I may be in error about McKeon's rank at the time.

See? That is a disadvantage of not beginning the series with On Basilisk Station.

Ah! Mercedes Brigham was with Honor aboard Fearless. Thanks munroburton.


Aside from Webster, the people I've named have served as Honor's XO or as some sort of deputy. Yanakov served in Battle Squadron One during Fourth Yeltsin and was second in command of Eighth Fleet until Oyster Bay forced his recall to be High Admiral. Yu was her flag captain during the former and commanded the Protector's Own on her behalf.

Truman was her second-in-command during the mission to Grayson and also 2IC of Eighth Fleet prior to Yanakov's reinforcements joining it. Henke is Honor's best friend forever and has been since the academy.

Honor's inner circle is vast, because she has an emotion sensor and knows beyond doubt who can be trusted. It's all Nimitz's fault, the wee devil is too easily bribed with celery. :D
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Re: Commodore Tremaine
Post by penny   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 5:13 pm

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penny wrote:
munroburton wrote:Highest? More like lowest. Judah Yanakov was up to High Admiral, with Alfredo Yu later replacing him. Alice Truman and Michelle Henke were both up to Vice Admiral. They're probably full Admirals now.

Representing the OG Fearless's crew, Alistair McKeon had made Rear Admiral. Mercedes Brigham is a Vice Admiral in the GSN. Samuel Webster a Rear Admiral(as of 1918; hasn't been mentioned since WoH).

There are more.

I don't think so munroburton. None of those people are from Honor's most intimate inner circle. Except McKeon who I believe was already a Captain aboard HMS Fearless (CL-56) when Honor took over. I may be in error about McKeon's rank at the time.

See? That is a disadvantage of not beginning the series with On Basilisk Station.

Ah! Mercedes Brigham was with Honor aboard Fearless. Thanks munroburton.


munroburton wrote:Aside from Webster, the people I've named have served as Honor's XO or as some sort of deputy. Yanakov served in Battle Squadron One during Fourth Yeltsin and was second in command of Eighth Fleet until Oyster Bay forced his recall to be High Admiral. Yu was her flag captain during the former and commanded the Protector's Own on her behalf.

Truman was her second-in-command during the mission to Grayson and also 2IC of Eighth Fleet prior to Yanakov's reinforcements joining it. Henke is Honor's best friend forever and has been since the academy.

Honor's inner circle is vast, because she has an emotion sensor and knows beyond doubt who can be trusted. It's all Nimitz's fault, the wee devil is too easily bribed with celery. :D

I concede to a lot of your points. Especially about the wee devil. LOL

But yeah, Honor's inner circle grew over the years. But her most intimate inner circle was HMS Fearless (CL-56). Even storyline occasionally mentioned that tight knit group.

Also, as far as this conversation, the later members of her inner circle shouldn't count, because they were not actually spending lengthy tours aboard ship with Honor, seeing how she operates, soaking up her strategy and tactics and benefitting from personal, private and intimate discussions as to the why of said strategy and tactics.

And we all know the story of Henke, who precedes her inner circle. Besides, those two are more like bosom buddies. :-)
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Re: Commodore Tremaine
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 5:43 pm

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penny wrote:Also, as far as this conversation, the later members of her inner circle shouldn't count, because they were not actually spending lengthy tours aboard ship with Honor, seeing how she operates, soaking up her strategy and tactics and benefitting from personal, private and intimate discussions as to the why of said strategy and tactics.


That's why I went with a list of deputies, because they do get to see very closely how she operates, soaking up the lot and attending her increasingly legendary dinners.

Just because people arrived later doesn't mean they're further away from the "centre" - I would say Andrea Jaruwalski stands out as an exemplary late-joiner who became closer than several of the original Fearless crew.

Hm, I just realised I forgot Truman and Webster went out to Silesia too, as captains of the Q-ship squadron Honor was in command of.

Anyway, if you're going to insist upon intimacy then the prize of the highest ranking member of Honor's inner circle has to go to Fleet Admiral(in two navies too!) Hamish Alexander-Harrington. :lol:
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Re: Commodore Tremaine
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 5:47 pm

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penny wrote:I concede to a lot of your points. Especially about the wee devil. LOL

But yeah, Honor's inner circle grew over the years. But her most intimate inner circle was HMS Fearless (CL-56). Even storyline occasionally mentioned that tight knit group.


I don't think so. She commanded CL-56 for exactly one mission after the war games, and she was on station for only a few months. Plus, a great deal of that crew died on the mission.

Her innermost circles are likely from HMS Hawkwing (she commanded for 2 years) and especially from HMS Fearless CA-286 (4 years).

Also, as far as this conversation, the later members of her inner circle shouldn't count, because they were not actually spending lengthy tours aboard ship with Honor, seeing how she operates, soaking up her strategy and tactics and benefitting from personal, private and intimate discussions as to the why of said strategy and tactics.


Quite to the contrary! The skippers and first officers of any ship in a formation she was CO or flag captain of would have far more discussions with her about strategy and tactics. When she was CO of a destroyer or a light-cruiser, she would have hardly needed to have tactics. Her tenure aboard Hawkwing involved single-ship tactics only, and against pirates. Plus, she was also very insecure at the time.

That changes with CA-286, a heavy cruiser. The mission to Grayson was probably not the first time she was the seniormost captain or even flag captain. And HMS Nike was the single most prestigious posting any captain could want, with the benefit of learning quite a lot in discussions with Adm. Sarnow. She didn't learn all the strategy and tactics by herself; she'd have needed time to learn from others and she couldn't have done that as a mere Commander.

And we all know the story of Henke, who precedes her inner circle. Besides, those two are more like bosom buddies. :-)


Yes, we all do. The admiral commanding Tenth Fleet, responsible for suckering Byng, for cleaning Crandall's clock, liberating the Madras sector without a single loss, the conqueror of Mesa (though Tourville brought more toys to this last party). The person who is probably closest to Honor herself in terms of strategy and skills.
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Re: Commodore Tremaine
Post by Dauntless   » Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:33 pm

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A name that doesn't seem to be mentioned is Michael Overgsteen?

He has not had a lot of screen time with Honor, and there is no text for it, but I always got the impression that even before his assignment to Eighth Fleet in command of the first of the new Nike BC that Honor at the very least respected his abilities.

This might have just been after Abigail Hearns' snotty cruise and the fun they had dealing with the pirates. After all he took a Sag B up against four modern solly CA and won, Sag-b were strong but 4 on 1 is tough odds.

Mike Henke also thought pretty highly of him when he was promoted and shifted to tenth fleet. I think the only reason he didn't stay as her XO was the arrival of the SD(P)s.
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Re: Commodore Tremaine
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:44 pm

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Dauntless wrote:This might have just been after Abigail Hearns' snotty cruise and the fun they had dealing with the pirates. After all he took a Sag B up against four modern solly CA and won, Sag-b were strong but 4 on 1 is tough odds.


Yeah, but the "Four Yahoos" were not good ship-handlers, not even by SLN standards. Ditto with Monica later. But at this point no one knew how far ahead of SLN tech Manticore was, not even us. We knew that Haven had ditched the imports from the League because it didn't need them any more, but not how large the gap was.

I don't think I was convinced until the Battle of Spindle. That couldn't leave a doubt, because it was the most one-sided victory in history... only to be surpassed by the next time the SLN paid a visit to an SEM system.

On Oversteegen himself, maybe we'll get more "screen time" from him, but I don't think so. We've been introduced to a lot of characters in the SI and CS sub-series and it seems to me some other characters are more important for the future. We'll hear from him, but only in passing like it was for Judah Yanakov.

Mike Henke also thought pretty highly of him when he was promoted and shifted to tenth fleet. I think the only reason he didn't stay as her XO was the arrival of the SD(P)s.


Do you mean her flag captain?

Anyway, yes, by then Tenth Fleet had grown sufficiently that Henke could shift her flag to an SD(P). Was she also promoted?
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