How advance are the Alpha lines?

Brigade XO wrote:

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Ahem. The Meyerdahl package (and its variants) were created centuries before Earth's Final War (and thus more centuries before the birth of Leonard Detweiler). I repeat again, if Alfred and Honor had gene enhancements that were NOT part of the documented Meyerdahl package (including known variants), why didn't Allison notice it?

Allison probably doesn't know all of the components of the Harrington DNA though she is probably failure with her own parental lines (and any changes recently). I suspect that the Meyerdahl package now had been tagged into by various other variations just from normal reproduction. Stephanies Harrington's husband was not from either Meyerdahl or Manticore. Given the numbers of people who immigrated to Manticore just from the incentives after the Plague, they would have acquired a broad selections of DNA from just a few generations. We also have had a steady stream of ongoing immigration for various reasons touched on in the books and that includes freed genetic slaves who became citizens.

What are you screening for when you test a zygote? Known fatal and debilitating genetically related conditions. How much of the genetic information in an individuals DNA would Allison have deemed worth a truly deep inspection if there were none that were already flagged for actual physical and and developmental problems? Like: how many repeats of various segments of genes in a given chromosome could mean there is a problem we have't seen before?
She did amazing work on the Grayson pregnancy/male fetal mortality/ very unusual serviving female to male ratios. But she was dealing with with a population which was insular for a very long time by isolation and had generally accepted that this was just the way things were. She was tracking something that was causing males not to be carried to term. But she had a massively large potential source of subject data and a vary focused approach. 50+ years earlier would she have been able to pick out really "odd" sections of DNA from what he future daughter would have vs what she and and her husband (with Meyerdahl mod) heavy world adapted family lines for a whole bunch of generators) contributed? If she looked beyond what someone with her background and medical specialty would have done (and have had reviews in the hospital she worked at) we haven't been told.

I would guess she would have at least had the standard tests run- given who she was and what she was doing- and found no congenital problems. There is also NO information that she ever tried looking at what made at least some Harringtons more likely to bond with Treecats, even after Honor bonded with Nimitz.
There is also NO information about exactly where and how genetically different Alpha individuals are specifically differnt from the rest of Humanity. That may change, but then the whole question of genetic testing to identify self-modified race beyond humans will be "interesting".

Brigade XO wrote:

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Ahem. The Meyerdahl package (and its variants) were created centuries before Earth's Final War (and thus more centuries before the birth of Leonard Detweiler). I repeat again, if Alfred and Honor had gene enhancements that were NOT part of the documented Meyerdahl package (including known variants), why didn't Allison notice it?

Allison probably doesn't know all of the components of the Harrington DNA though she is probably failure with her own parental lines (and any changes recently). I suspect that the Meyerdahl package now had been tagged into by various other variations just from normal reproduction. Stephanies Harrington's husband was not from either Meyerdahl or Manticore. Given the numbers of people who immigrated to Manticore just from the incentives after the Plague, they would have acquired a broad selections of DNA from just a few generations. We also have had a steady stream of ongoing immigration for various reasons touched on in the books and that includes freed genetic slaves who became citizens.

Brigade XO wrote:

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Ahem. The Meyerdahl package (and its variants) were created centuries before Earth's Final War (and thus more centuries before the birth of Leonard Detweiler). I repeat again, if Alfred and Honor had gene enhancements that were NOT part of the documented Meyerdahl package (including known variants), why didn't Allison notice it?

Allison probably doesn't know all of the components of the Harrington DNA though she is probably failure with her own parental lines (and any changes recently). I suspect that the Meyerdahl package now had been tagged into by various other variations just from normal reproduction. Stephanies Harrington's husband was not from either Meyerdahl or Manticore. Given the numbers of people who immigrated to Manticore just from the incentives after the Plague, they would have acquired a broad selections of DNA from just a few generations. We also have had a steady stream of ongoing immigration for various reasons touched on in the books and that includes freed genetic slaves who became citizens.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:Allison lectures at some length about the Meyerdahl modifictions in _Ashes of Victory_. Since she identified the Harrington's of having the Beta variant, I suspect that she did look at their DNA. In _At All Costs_, she mentioned that she looked for why Honor couldn't regenerate (which means that she did look).

penny wrote:I did not mean to imply that she failed to look into why Honor did not regenerate. She did look at that. I stated that she would have been consumed with that. I recall that she mentioned it. But, would any modifications by the MA have been obvious to her while she was looking at the specific section of the code dealing with regeneration? Should it have been obvious? And would she have specifically looked for any difference?

This does make me wonder if the MA's alleged modifications are responsible for Honor's inability to regenerate. Anyone know if textev gives that answer? If the MA's alleged mods are responsible for Honor's inability to regenerate, then perhaps Robert is correct and Alison should have noticed; being that Honor is her daughter and Alison would have been thorough.

Chapter 3 wrote:"That's only an estimate, and it's not one modification. The Harringtons are descended from the Meyerdahl First Wave, which was one of the first—in fact, I think it was the first—heavy-grav modification, and folks like us probably make up about twenty or twenty-five percent of the population. But there are several variations on the same theme, and worlds tend to attract colonists who can live there comfortably. When you add the free passages the government offered to recruit fresh colonists after the Plague of Twenty-Two AL, Sphinx wound up attracting an even bigger chunk of us than most, including a lot from the core worlds who wouldn't even have considered emigration otherwise. In many respects, the Meyerdahl genies are the most successful, in my modest opinion, though. Our musculature enhancement is certainly the most efficient, at any rate. But we do have one problem most of the others don't."
"Which is?"
"Most of us don't regenerate," she told him, touching the left side of her face. "Over eighty percent of us have a built-in genetic conflict with the regen therapies, and not even Beowulf has been able to figure out how to get around it yet. I'm pretty sure they will eventually, but for now—"

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Allison lectures at some length about the Meyerdahl modifictions in _Ashes of Victory_. Since she identified the Harrington's of having the Beta variant, I suspect that she did look at their DNA. In _At All Costs_, she mentioned that she looked for why Honor couldn't regenerate (which means that she did look).

Jonathan_S wrote:Identifying the mods Honor or Alfred have (assuming the lost Alpha line came via Alfred) wouldn't have required the kind of full gene sequencing you'd need to hope to identify unknown modifications. (Though with only one or two people's gene sequences for comparison it might be hard to tell inherited unknown mods from random genetic variation -- so even if Alison did run, and minutely examine, full genetic sequences on Alfred and Honor would the Alpha line mods be identifiable as mods?)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:[
It's still reasonable to assume Allison might have done that because we're talking about her two closest relatives, and one of them is not a blood relative. The Benton-Ramirez y Chou genome must be very well documented, so she might have felt the need to do it.

And it's been 60 T-years since Honor was born, 70-something since she met and started dating Alfred. She may not have taken any single full month to do the work up, but squeezing a few hours a month over 70 years should be enough.

Therefore, I think there are no mods that stood out to her more than the general noise level. Any specific MAlign mods may simply have diluted away in the population, because the Harrington line isn't the only lost line. The modifications must have spread over the entire population, especially the early ones from the late 15th century PD. They were probably far more benign and less intrusive too. The Malignant part of the Alignment didn't start until later, when the Detweilers faked the extinction of their own line to go into hiding (the Wiki doesn't say when).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Identifying the mods Honor or Alfred have (assuming the lost Alpha line came via Alfred) wouldn't have required the kind of full gene sequencing you'd need to hope to identify unknown modifications. (Though with only one or two people's gene sequences for comparison it might be hard to tell inherited unknown mods from random genetic variation -- so even if Alison did run, and minutely examine, full genetic sequences on Alfred and Honor would the Alpha line mods be identifiable as mods?)

It's still reasonable to assume Allison might have done that because we're talking about her two closest relatives, and one of them is not a blood relative. The Benton-Ramirez y Chou genome must be very well documented, so she might have felt the need to do it.

And it's been 60 T-years since Honor was born, 70-something since she met and started dating Alfred. She may not have taken any single full month to do the work up, but squeezing a few hours a month over 70 years should be enough.

Therefore, I think there are no mods that stood out to her more than the general noise level. Any specific MAlign mods may simply have diluted away in the population, because the Harrington line isn't the only lost line. The modifications must have spread over the entire population, especially the early ones from the late 15th century PD. They were probably far more benign and less intrusive too. The Malignant part of the Alignment didn't start until later, when the Detweilers faked the extinction of their own line to go into hiding (the Wiki doesn't say when).

Relax wrote:No, Honor and other Meydrahal genies are not Alphas. ~600 years ago, they might have been before fleeing to Sphinx.

What would be considered alpha today would by necessity require regeneration at minimum and many other mods such as gestation period being normal... nor requiring to eat like oinkers all the time. Maybe Meydrahal genies could be considered Gamma or Beta or something like that, but alpha 600 years after the fact?

Nah