Defense of Felix

tlb wrote:To me, Felix has special interest ONLY because of the actions of Mannerheim.

So you feel that Felix has no strategic interest to the MAN??? Simply seeking clarification.

penny wrote:But do ask yourself. Who destroyed Harvest Joy? And what kind of incisors do the MSDF really have to cut and tear prey with when an arrogant GA contingency arrives with its ... ultimatums?

I thought you knew: Mannerheim destroyed the Harvest Joy and they are not the ones with the spider drive ships. The Malign may throw the Renaissance factor under the bus by coming to Mannerheim's defense, but that also throws away their six century long plan. Who knows how long it will take them to come up with another one?

PS: I stated much earlier in this thread that "Obviously Felix is important and obviously it must be defended" by the Malign. But arguing about how that might be done is of NO interest to me. I prefer to wait and see what the author decides.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:But do ask yourself. Who destroyed Harvest Joy? And what kind of incisors do the MSDF really have to cut and tear prey with when an arrogant GA contingency arrives with its ... ultimatums?

I thought you knew: Mannerheim destroyed the Harvest Joy and they are not the ones with the spider drive ships. The Malign may throw the Renaissance factor under the bus by coming to Mannerheim's defense, but that also throws away their six century long plan. Who knows how long it will take them to come up with another one?

PS: I stated much earlier in this thread that "Obviously Felix is important and obviously it must be defended" by the Malign. But arguing about how that might be done is of NO interest to me. I prefer to wait and see what the author decides.

Mannerheim is controlled by the MAlign. Same as Galton. Throwing Mannerheim under the bus is not synonymous with throwing the RF under the bus. Mannerheim is simply one component.

penny wrote:Throwing Mannerheim under the bus is not synonymous with throwing the RF under the bus. Mannerheim is simply one component.

So we disagree again. Quelle surprise!

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Throwing Mannerheim under the bus is not synonymous with throwing the RF under the bus. Mannerheim is simply one component.

So we disagree again. Quelle surprise!

I suppose so if you think tossing Mannerheim under the bus is synonymous with tossing the RF under the bus.

I am not saying that I do not think the MA would toss the RF under the bus. I am only saying the two are not synonymous. And it would depend on what plans the MA have for the RF, of which I have no clue.

However, I do not think the whole of Mannerheim is in on the conspiracy. Only key government and naval positions are actually controlled by the MA. Same as Galton. I doubt whether the citizens of Mannerheim nor anyone but key officers in the MSDF even know about the WH.

So, asking questions will yield no answers from people who are themselves clueless. You can't get blood out of a turnip. Ignorance is not only bliss but it is a boon for operational security.

1) The Renaissance Factor is no longer secret. It is talked about in TEIF at a couple of points. One of those is two of the major characters having a conversation and one -doesn't know what to make of the Renaissance Factor that sprang up after Harrington's visit to Sol and so setting the stage for the (more or less) peaceful ability of SL members and those not members but who are too enmeshed in the former dominance of the SL (including OFS etc) to move out from it's shadow. There is also a scene where one of the major Mannerheim players is thinking bout what is going on and the routes to bringing systems into its thrall.

2) There have been 3 known uses of the Spider Drive in the universe at large. The first two are at Manticore Binary System and at Grayson in the Oyster Bay strikes. The third is the Silver Bullet breaking and then station keeping at Beowulf to take out the control links for the system defense pods. What we have not been told is anything since Oyster Bay and then after the attack on Beowulf about what Manticore, Grayson and Beowulf MAY have discovered going through various sensor logs in the time frames involved. At Beowulf, the sensors showed the grazer fire that took out the control stations....we haven't been told if they picked up the Silver Bullet doing it's self-destruct though the burn-up of the grasers.

3) Finding the wormhole at Felix is going to be an interesting challenge for the GA. It is possible that they could run long range scouting similar to what they did to find Galton based on ship movements but finding the wormhole without sending a survey ship similar to Harvest Joy to do comprehensive survey falls back into the range of luck since ships using the wormhole are going to be well outside of the Felix system and any Ghost Rider RDs are going to be looking essentially in the system.

4) Mannerheim has a cover story for its activity in the Felix system. They want to annex it for the resources and as a place to excise its SDF. Nothing criminal there, particularly if it is uninhabited and not presently being used by commercial or other activities of the others that do have ownership claims on it. Mannerheim might legitimately be unhappy that the GA has stumbled onto it's interest (mostly for fear that it will become public knowledge and drive up the potential price for buying the system) but ultimately "assisting" the GA to investigate the system for Alignment activity IN THE SYSTEM should be a way to have them go away to look elsewhere. That they would get at least some of the evidence the GA has about suspect ships heading in that direction (because none are going to be showing up there) will be of great interest to the Alignment since it may lead them to closing off leaks or just eliminating damaging operations.

5) "Obviously Harvest Joy got what was coming to her" is a real interesting statement. That the Harvest Joy may have been destroyed by the conditions of the Torch wormhole tearing her apart is one thing- and an occupational hazard for wormhole survey crews. That statement, however, sounds like a Malign agent or member expressing an opinion of what should happen to anybody who dares to interfere or stick their nose into Alignment business.
That it was Mannerheim ships that destroyed Harvest Joy without warning is just normal Alignment SOP. No actual intelligence would have been gained by capturing the ship and then what-other than killing them- would you do to keep the crew from becoming a liability?

Brigade XO wrote:1) The Renaissance Factor is no longer secret. It is talked about in TEIF at a couple of points. One of those is two of the major characters having a conversation and one -doesn't know what to make of the Renaissance Factor that sprang up after Harrington's visit to Sol and so setting the stage for the (more or less) peaceful ability of SL members and those not members but who are too enmeshed in the former dominance of the SL (including OFS etc) to move out from it's shadow. There is also a scene where one of the major Mannerheim players is thinking bout what is going on and the routes to bringing systems into its thrall.

The name is no longer a secret, but I think the purpose still is. I entertained the thought that the MA might have leaked it for their own purposes. Probably a long shot, but, yeah.

2) There have been 3 known uses of the Spider Drive in the universe at large. The first two are at Manticore Binary System and at Grayson in the Oyster Bay strikes. The third is the Silver Bullet breaking and then station keeping at Beowulf to take out the control links for the system defense pods. What we have not been told is anything since Oyster Bay and then after the attack on Beowulf about what Manticore, Grayson and Beowulf MAY have discovered going through various sensor logs in the time frames involved. At Beowulf, the sensors showed the grazer fire that took out the control stations....we haven't been told if they picked up the Silver Bullet doing it's self-destruct though the burn-up of the grasers.

The Silver Bullets have spider drives?

3) Finding the wormhole at Felix is going to be an interesting challenge for the GA. It is possible that they could run long range scouting similar to what they did to find Galton based on ship movements but finding the wormhole without sending a survey ship similar to Harvest Joy to do comprehensive survey falls back into the range of luck since ships using the wormhole are going to be well outside of the Felix system and any Ghost Rider RDs are going to be looking essentially in the system.

I think it was tlb who pointed out that a force hanging around the junction kind of highlights the area to search. So it would appear that no ships would be guarding it, lest they were invisible. But something destroyed Harvest Joy. So, beats me.

4) Mannerheim has a cover story for its activity in the Felix system. They want to annex it for the resources and as a place to excise its SDF. Nothing criminal there, particularly if it is uninhabited and not presently being used by commercial or other activities of the others that do have ownership claims on it. Mannerheim might legitimately be unhappy that the GA has stumbled onto it's interest (mostly for fear that it will become public knowledge and drive up the potential price for buying the system) but ultimately "assisting" the GA to investigate the system for Alignment activity IN THE SYSTEM should be a way to have them go away to look elsewhere. That they would get at least some of the evidence the GA has about suspect ships heading in that direction (because none are going to be showing up there) will be of great interest to the Alignment since it may lead them to closing off leaks or just eliminating damaging operations.

The thought of buying a system still shocks me. Who would a system be bought from? Who has the deed to Felix?

5) "Obviously Harvest Joy got what was coming to her" is a real interesting statement. That the Harvest Joy may have been destroyed by the conditions of the Torch wormhole tearing her apart is one thing- and an occupational hazard for wormhole survey crews. That statement, however, sounds like a Malign agent or member expressing an opinion of what should happen to anybody who dares to interfere or stick their nose into Alignment business.
That it was Mannerheim ships that destroyed Harvest Joy without warning is just normal Alignment SOP. No actual intelligence would have been gained by capturing the ship and then what-other than killing them- would you do to keep the crew from becoming a liability?

I was channeling the MAlign.

penny wrote:The Silver Bullets have spider drives?

The thought of buying a system still shocks me. Who would a system be bought from? Who has the deed to Felix?

I do not have text after Mission of Honor, but clearly they had to have undetectable drives to detect and move close to the Mycroft platforms after they were dumped out of the freighter(s?).

As I understand it the system belongs to the company that surveyed it. The same as the rights to Manticore were purchased before the colony ship left to settle it.

The rights to Felix are in dispute.

penny wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:1) The Renaissance Factor is no longer secret. It is talked about in TEIF at a couple of points. One of those is two of the major characters having a conversation and one -doesn't know what to make of the Renaissance Factor that sprang up after Harrington's visit to Sol and so setting the stage for the (more or less) peaceful ability of SL members and those not members but who are too enmeshed in the former dominance of the SL (including OFS etc) to move out from it's shadow. There is also a scene where one of the major Mannerheim players is thinking bout what is going on and the routes to bringing systems into its thrall.

The name is no longer a secret, but I think the purpose still is. I entertained the thought that the MA might have leaked it for their own purposes. Probably a long shot, but, yeah.

It's ultimate purpose, no of course not.
But the fact that it's busy forming into a star nation? That's known.

To End In Fire wrote:Gannon’s finger swooped over five hundred light-years “down” from Maya to the Mannerheim System, the center of the ten-star “Renaissance Factor.” The Factor’s systems had never belonged to the League, and they formed a two hundred-light-year bubble of surprisingly affluent sovereign systems in the Fringe. All of them were independent polities, but the chaos and uncertainty of the League’s war with the Grand Alliance had drawn them together in a defensive association that was busy transitioning into an actual star nation.
“You can kiss at least another dozen or so star systems goodbye to the Renaissance Factor within another two to five years,” he continued. “Then—”
His finger started toward another portion of display, but Kingsford stopped him.

And if one of their founding members, Mannerheim, is shown to be associated with "the Other Guys", Mesa, Oyster Bay, Beowulf, and Galton that would rather discredit the RF, draw far more scrutiny to them, and incidentally expose Mannerheim's hypocrisy over their anti-slavery stance (further discrediting them, and by extension the RF).

All of which would tend to significantly undermine the MAlign's long term plans for the Faction.


So, unless they have no choice, I doubt the MAlign would be willing to risk exposing their connection the Mannerheim. Which likely requires them to keep their interest in Felix secret.


And I'd think that they could keep that secret if, once Felix's wormhole was exposed/found, they simply blockading their end of it and kill any ship that attempted to transit. Mannerheim could plausibly claim that they'd never tried transiting, and thus didn't know that at least one leg of it was a "killer wormhole". I think they could believable claim that they lacked the domestic expertise to perform a covert survey, and had been trying to quietly secure uncontested rights to the system before they risked bringing in an outside survey company (and the rumors or leaks that might come from that)

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:The Silver Bullets have spider drives?

The thought of buying a system still shocks me. Who would a system be bought from? Who has the deed to Felix?

I do not have text after Mission of Honor, but clearly they had to have undetectable drives to detect and move close to the Mycroft platforms after they were dumped out of the freighter(s?).

As I understand it the system belongs to the company that surveyed it. The same as the rights to Manticore were purchased before the colony ship left to settle it.

The rights to Felix are in dispute.

Actually it's in Uncompromising Honor. I think there's a biggest description of the Silver Bullet elsewhere in the book; but here's a quite quote that confirms that, yes, it has a spider drive

Uncompromising Honor wrote:Silver Bullet Q-12 was far larger than most people’s drones, larger even than one of the Royal Manticoran Navy’s Ghost Rider platforms. It was, however, at least as stealthy as Ghost Rider as it swept slowly along on its spider drive.