Religious Treecats

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Genetic research on a treecat is not impossible. The secret of their DNA is going to eventually get out, it's only a matter of time. Whether RFC writes that before the MAlign is brought down or not is unknown (most likely he won't).

The MAlign have captured treecats before but the cats always die in captivity. They also have researched the DNA but they couldn't find anything that explained the cats telepathy.

Joat42 wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Genetic research on a treecat is not impossible. The secret of their DNA is going to eventually get out, it's only a matter of time. Whether RFC writes that before the MAlign is brought down or not is unknown (most likely he won't).

The MAlign have captured treecats before but the cats always die in captivity. They also have researched the DNA but they couldn't find anything that explained the cats telepathy.

IIRC only one treecat was ever taken captive. It was taken around the time of the Rictman Scandal in 1500PD. It died shortly thereafter. Mesa still has tissue samples but any research is conducted in a desultory fashion.

penny wrote:

penny wrote: The Prodigal Cat

Wasn't there a cat who had been exiled? Or was an outcast? Rebellious?

He was even called "the outcast."

Yes, some treecats can become insane and will be exiled from clans. It's rare because they have healers that can usually cure most of those sanity issues.

At any rate, my warped religious brain toys with the idea of a treecat deciding to willingly become a part of the MA. One who welcomes genetic research. A treecat who has bonded with a Detweiler.

It's not impossible, but where would such a treecat get such a chance? All any of them know about the Alignment is that they exterminated a full clan with the Yawata Strike. All the other information they get is coming through the GA and via those scouts that have either adopted a two-legs or are now bodyguards. There's a selection bias here: the insane treecats or those with murderous tendencies would not get the opportunity to go off-planet.

And just how would the Detweilers come face-to-face with a treecat? Even if they had the opportunity, would they risk that the treecat instead of bonding decide to slash his face?

What if this treecat is enlightened? And what if treecat genetic code turns out to be more amenable - and productive - to genetic research? What if treecat DNA really has produced a treecat who is a perfect Alpha?

The Prodigal Cat returns to the treecat species by way of the Grayson Cats.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Genetic research on a treecat is not impossible. The secret of their DNA is going to eventually get out, it's only a matter of time. Whether RFC writes that before the MAlign is brought down or not is unknown (most likely he won't).

But culture is another thing. The MAlign is not going to be able to kidnap and maintain a live treecat clan that can pass on their culture and thus language and the understanding of mind-glow. If you just cloned a treecat from DNA and grew it in a tank, you'd get a wild / feral treecat that didn't know what to do with the mindglows. It would be like Tarzan: he could hear and make mouth noises, but he didn't speak.

Thanks! I didn't know why the notion of an outcast was stuck in my head. Anyway, if there were insane treecats, it could be that the insanity was a factor of a strong individuality naturally reacting to a total lack of privacy; characterized by always having lots of other people constantly in your head.

At any rate, the notion is no longer discussing the reality of the MA's difficulty of having to deal with a captured treecat, but one who has decided to go willingly. And for it to be an impact on the current timeline it had to be something that happened long ago. I'd say long before the Yawata Strike.

But tell me this, why shouldn't cloned treecats not be able to communicate telepathically? Especially if celery is grown on Darius or their own native root is synthesized, or the providence of a plant that is just as good or better.

A treecat with cloned sons is just as possible as cloning a human. However, who is to say that this insane treecat(s) did not have a bonded mate(s) who chose to go with the MA willingly. The treecat Adam(s) and Eve(s) of Darius.

If they were "insane" they could have been wandering outside of the far regions of treecat territory and happened upon MAlign agents/handlers by providence. If a bond happened immediately, then "Bob's your uncle" and "Fanny's your aunt." As the Brits say.

penny wrote:At any rate, the notion is no longer discussing the reality of the MA's difficulty of having to deal with a captured treecat, but one who has decided to go willingly. And for it to be an impact on the current timeline it had to be something that happened long ago. I'd say long before the Yawata Strike.

Means, motive, opportunity.

Before the Strike, treecats were passing themselves as little more than particularly smart pets. The SFS knew better and so did the Crown, but even they didn't know enough. Why would the Alignment have taken an interest? They already had tissue samples, but no idea that treecats were that intelligent and hadn't managed to reproduce the telepathy.

After the Strike, even lone treecats would have known of the suffering that their brethren had felt. It would need to be a particularly insane and masochist treecat to take the side of those who caused the death an entire Clan. It's highly unlikely such a treecat was alive at the time -- treecats tend not to survive alone, especially not those who are effectively ill, and they may get killed by other treecats as they would have been a threat to existing Clans. And their world-view, as warped as it might be, may not include the concept of choosing to find those who launched the attack.

Even so, a lone treecat who wished to exile himself off planet would find difficult to find passage. They are not citizens of Manticore, they don't have money, they can't buy passage. The SFS is still monitoring the planet for kidnapping. And if this lone treecat is also that insane, what's the likelihood that they can hold themselves in check long enough to, effectively, defect?

But tell me this, why shouldn't cloned treecats not be able to communicate telepathically? Especially if celery is grown on Darius or their own native root is synthesized, or the providence of a plant that is just as good or better.

Celery is not the necessary component to telepathy. It's something Sphinxian that got spliced into Terran food to make it grow there. But that's neither here nor there.

The point is not that they'd lack the physical and biological capability. It's that they'd lack the skill and learning. Every human who is not physically impaired can perform brain surgery, write Hamlet, program a recursive AI training algorithm, and assemble the avionics of an aeroplane cockpit, all in the space of a single week. But has anyone who has ever been alive done that? More importantly, could Tarzan without being taught? Could Tarzan even assemble a bookshelf using IKEA instructions, which are entirely pictographic?

The problem is not the biological ability, it's that they'd have to reinvent language first. That's a learned skill, not instinct. They'd have to realise that what they're feeling is external to them in the first place, and understand how to control it. At the basic biological function, the treecat may feel "warm and fuzzy" around some people or "ill at ease" around others, to the point of attempting to attack some of the researchers around them.

That brings an interesting point: just how are you going to breed treecats if the researchers to work with them are the ones most likely to abscond with them? If a researcher gets adopted, they will not want the treecat to see any harm, so the research becomes difficult. You'd have to confine the treecats so they don't hurt the researchers with lower moral qualms, at which point you don't have good specimens for treecats in the first place.

A treecat with cloned sons is just as possible as cloning a human. However, who is to say that this insane treecat(s) did not have a bonded mate(s) who chose to go with the MA willingly. The treecat Adam(s) and Eve(s) of Darius.

If they were "insane" they could have been wandering outside of the far regions of treecat territory and happened upon MAlign agents/handlers by providence. If a bond happened immediately, then "Bob's your uncle" and "Fanny's your aunt." As the Brits say.

We don't know of any insane treecat with a mate, because mating reduces the likelihood of insanity in the first place. Exiled pairs have been known to happen for illness reasons, but see above for means, motive, and opportunity. Plus, now in the scenario you posit, there's one sane treecat in that pair with regular morals and who may oppose leaving Sphinx, going with those who they can read to have ill and duplicitous intent. You'd have to convince two of them now, and by your construction one is not insane.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Celery is not the necessary component to telepathy. It's something Sphinxian that got spliced into Terran food to make it grow there. But that's neither here nor there.

Actually that compound might be necessary for telepathy. Here's probably the most relevant quote

War of Honor: Ch. 13 wrote:"They love the taste of any celery from anywhere," Honor told her. "But back when humans first came to the Manticore System, we had to make some minor adjustments in our Old Terran flora and fauna before we introduced them into their new environments. As," she added in a dust-dry tone, gesturing briefly at herself, "we've done with human beings themselves, in a few other cases. We didn't do anything really drastic in the case of Sphinx, but a few minor genetic changes were designed into most of the Old Terran food plants to prevent the fixing of elements we didn't need in our diet and to discourage some particularly persistent local parasites and the plant diseases they carry. The basic idea was to get the genegineered plants to manufacture and store a Sphinxian organic compound that's harmless to humans but serves as a natural insect repellant. It worked in all of them, but better in some than in others, and it was most effective of all in celery, of all things. The version in the descendants of the modified Old Terran plants is slightly different from that which occurs in the native flora, sort of a hybrid. But it appears to be either necessary or extremely beneficial to the maintenance of the 'cats' empathic and telepathic senses."
"But where did they get it from before we came along with our celery?" Emily demanded.
"There's a Sphinxian plant that produces the native plants' version of the same compound. They call it 'purple thorn,' and they've known about it forever. But it's scarce and hard to find, and, frankly, they say celery just tastes a whole lot better." Honor shrugged again.

If it actually is necessary then a cloned 'cat without access to that Sphinxian organic compound might never develop their empathic or telepathic ability. Effectively stunted due to something akin to an acute vitamin deficiency.

If so then, as you pointed out, it's not good enough to know the 'cats like celery. You'd have to give them not only the particular strain of celery gene-modded for Sphynx, but also grow it in a Sphynxian environment. (After all, it fixes the compound, implying it collects and concentrates it from the environment, likely the soil, rather than inherently creating it - so you have to grow it in an environment where the compound exists to be fixed into the celery)

Ironically however, the diaspora of 'Cats might make knowledge of that compound, and its formulation, more widely known.

'Cats serving on RMN vessels before the war probably weren't away for long enough for deficiencies to be serious.

But once the 'cats started emigrating to other worlds, and especially raising kittens there (who, as they're still growing and developing the capabilities, probably need the compound more acutely than adults do) it would be critical to ensure they have access to that compound.

I don't know if the Manties could have gene-engineered some plant to create it directly, or if they'd have simply gone for working out industrial manufacturing of it by pharmaceutical companies (making it into, say, a supplement pill) -- but either way the information that a specific compound was needed for the long term health of 'cats would become far more widespread. And spreading its production and/or availability to more worlds would make it easier to acquire samples, or even the existing production instructions.

Jonathan_S wrote:Ironically however, the diaspora of 'Cats might make knowledge of that compound, and its formulation, more widely known.

'Cats serving on RMN vessels before the war probably weren't away for long enough for deficiencies to be serious.

But once the 'cats started emigrating to other worlds, and especially raising kittens there (who, as they're still growing and developing the capabilities, probably need the compound more acutely than adults do) it would be critical to ensure they have access to that compound.

I don't know if the Manties could have gene-engineered some plant to create it directly, or if they'd have simply gone for working out industrial manufacturing of it by pharmaceutical companies (making it into, say, a supplement pill) -- but either way the information that a specific compound was needed for the long term health of 'cats would become far more widespread. And spreading its production and/or availability to more worlds would make it easier to acquire samples, or even the existing production instructions.

But given how Honor was discussing it, I don't think it's been treated as a state secret. The level of intelligence and the fact that they are truly telepathic, yes. But that they were good at empathy wasn't and that this particular nutrient was important in their diet.

It would be obvious to any biologist or geneticist that a species need certain nutrients found usually on the planet where they've evolved. No Alignment lab would make the mistake of lacking of Sphinxian native food, including that of other species that treecats would usually prey upon, like chipmunks. Honor's house on Grayson had some for the treecats there.

I aldo don't think the treecats aboard RMN ships lacked for the nutrients they needed. For one thing, the RMN would have proper food for them: the institutional knowledge was there. Honor as a cadet on her snotty cruise was able to feed Nimitz properly and her captain (Bachman) invited Nimitz to join them the Captain's table whenever he invited her. Moreover, I think it's not even difficult for the RMN, because their food is obtained from the same source: the MBS. Celery was an import and so must have a lot of others, but the Manticore population probably eats locally-evolved food too (with human-required nutrients fixed in).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Ironically however, the diaspora of 'Cats might make knowledge of that compound, and its formulation, more widely known.

'Cats serving on RMN vessels before the war probably weren't away for long enough for deficiencies to be serious.

But once the 'cats started emigrating to other worlds, and especially raising kittens there (who, as they're still growing and developing the capabilities, probably need the compound more acutely than adults do) it would be critical to ensure they have access to that compound.

I don't know if the Manties could have gene-engineered some plant to create it directly, or if they'd have simply gone for working out industrial manufacturing of it by pharmaceutical companies (making it into, say, a supplement pill) -- but either way the information that a specific compound was needed for the long term health of 'cats would become far more widespread. And spreading its production and/or availability to more worlds would make it easier to acquire samples, or even the existing production instructions.

But given how Honor was discussing it, I don't think it's been treated as a state secret. The level of intelligence and the fact that they are truly telepathic, yes. But that they were good at empathy wasn't and that this particular nutrient was important in their diet.

It would be obvious to any biologist or geneticist that a species need certain nutrients found usually on the planet where they've evolved. No Alignment lab would make the mistake of lacking of Sphinxian native food, including that of other species that treecats would usually prey upon, like chipmunks. Honor's house on Grayson had some for the treecats there.

I aldo don't think the treecats aboard RMN ships lacked for the nutrients they needed. For one thing, the RMN would have proper food for them: the institutional knowledge was there. Honor as a cadet on her snotty cruise was able to feed Nimitz properly and her captain (Bachman) invited Nimitz to join them the Captain's table whenever he invited her. Moreover, I think it's not even difficult for the RMN, because their food is obtained from the same source: the MBS. Celery was an import and so must have a lot of others, but the Manticore population probably eats locally-evolved food too (with human-required nutrients fixed in).

I'd think it could be difficult to identify every significant trace nutrient or vitamin that the animal needed from their environment - especially ones that take a long time for symptoms to appear. (Just an example, deprive a human of vitamin C and it'll take about 3 months before symptoms of scurvy appear)

That was so tricky that the Royal Navy ended up making changes to their antiscorbutics in the 1800s that rendered them utterly ineffective[1], and it took decades for them to notice. (Basically until their Arctic and Antarctic expedition's started coming down with scurvy) Because, coincidentally, the changes that ruined their effectiveness coincided with improvements to ship design and propulsion that meant it was no longer common for ships to be a sea for months between port calls. So while their onboard diet was nearly free of vitamin C their ships almost always reached port (and fresh foods containing vitamin c) before scurvy could become apparent.

So I wouldn't be surprised if it took quite a while to work out that purple thorn (or Sphinxian celery) was critical for the 'cats -- much less to isolate the specific compound within it that was; so you could ensure that food or supplements with the necessary levels of that compound were provided.

And it's unlikely that you'd be able to recreate their entire habitat and ecosystem just to ensure you didn't accidently miss a critical trace compound in their diet.

----
[1] The RN did at least a couple things that ruined their previously effective lime juice based antiscorbutic (though not all of them at the same time, or on all ships). They started storing the juice in large copper containers, which reacted with the acidic juice to break down the vitamin c. And they started canning and boiling the juice, to preserve it for long endurance missions, and it turns out boiling destroys much of the vitamin c.
Of course all of this was before vitamin c was isolated and identified; much less when it was identified as the thing that prevented scurvy -- so that makes it harder to test to see if the changes ruined the effectiveness. They'd have had to do a series of 3+ month long comparison tests, with participants cut off from fresh food, to determine whether a given preparation or storage method harmed the antiscorbutic property.

Jonathan_S wrote:Ironically however, the diaspora of 'Cats might make knowledge of that compound, and its formulation, more widely known.

'Cats serving on RMN vessels before the war probably weren't away for long enough for deficiencies to be serious.

But once the 'cats started emigrating to other worlds, and especially raising kittens there (who, as they're still growing and developing the capabilities, probably need the compound more acutely than adults do) it would be critical to ensure they have access to that compound.

I don't know if the Manties could have gene-engineered some plant to create it directly, or if they'd have simply gone for working out industrial manufacturing of it by pharmaceutical companies (making it into, say, a supplement pill) -- but either way the information that a specific compound was needed for the long term health of 'cats would become far more widespread. And spreading its production and/or availability to more worlds would make it easier to acquire samples, or even the existing production instructions.

I agree. I might add that I do not think in any way shape or form that the MAlignment, who is superior in genetic engineering, would have any problems identifying and synthesizing the entire gamut of nutrients in any single food source. Heck, I'd be surprised if the FDA in the HV does not require a complete nutrient breakdown of most any food source on their own.

I always assumed the MA already had that information long before they attempted to capture the first cat. They had to have known what their diet consisted of if they had any designs on keeping them alive. After all, who brings a hamster home before knowing what to feed it?

penny wrote:I agree. I might add that I do not think in any way shape or form that the MAlignment, who is superior in genetic engineering, would have any problems identifying and synthesizing the entire gamut of nutrients in any single food source. Heck, I'd be surprised that the FDA in the HV does not require a complete nutrient breakdown of most any food source on their own.

I always assumed the MA already had that information long before they attempted to capture the first cat. They had to have known what their diet consisted of if they had any designs on keeping them alive. After all, who brings a hamster home before knowing what to feed it?

Knowing what is in a food source, is not the same as knowing which component is necessary for a particular esoteric ability. We do not know how widely the knowledge has spread outside the people associated with cats. Without knowing that something special is needed extrasensory abilities, the Malign might only be able to provide the ingredients needed to survive. The Malign might have known that the cats liked celery, without realizing that there was something missing in the celery they had.

Maybe there is some foodstuff you do not know, that could permit the hamster understand more words than normal.