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Religious Treecats

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Re: Religious Treecats
Post by tlb   » Wed Nov 08, 2023 8:49 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Also, the person whose mindglow we know to be the strongest is Honor, and she's not very religious.

She is quietly religious, otherwise she would not regularly sit in the Stranger's Aisle in Harrington Cathedral. Nor would she spend "hours poring over The New Way herself in an effort to understand her people".
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Re: Religious Treecats
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:25 am

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tlb wrote:She is quietly religious, otherwise she would not regularly sit in the Stranger's Aisle in Harrington Cathedral. Nor would she spend "hours poring over The New Way herself in an effort to understand her people".


The latter can be explained by her being competent and responsible. If he's going to be a Steadholder of a people, she should understand the people she's leading and serving.

The fact that she's allowed to sit at the Cathedral means she does truly have a compatible faith. Though I will agree that "truly have a faith" might be enough to be characterised as "religious" even if she was not a regular church-goer on Sphinx or Manticore.
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Re: Religious Treecats
Post by tlb   » Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:14 am

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tlb wrote:She is quietly religious, otherwise she would not regularly sit in the Stranger's Aisle in Harrington Cathedral. Nor would she spend "hours poring over The New Way herself in an effort to understand her people".

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The latter can be explained by her being competent and responsible. If he's going to be a Steadholder of a people, she should understand the people she's leading and serving.

The fact that she's allowed to sit at the Cathedral means she does truly have a compatible faith. Though I will agree that "truly have a faith" might be enough to be characterised as "religious" even if she was not a regular church-goer on Sphinx or Manticore.

I completely agree about her motivation; Honor is always driven by her duty to her people. However "she's allowed to sit at the Cathedral" because she is the Steadholder, it is only the regularity of attendance that suggests something more. There are many ways to obtain understanding about the people of her Steading, these two particular ways were emphasized by the author.
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Re: Religious Treecats
Post by markusschaber   » Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:55 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Also, the person whose mindglow we know to be the strongest is Honor, and she's not very religious.


Maybe not very, but she is religious, just part of a free, not centrally organized confession, and she's tolerant to other religions and confessions - and admittedly, she's not a missionary.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
We must also consider that Grayson's Cats, being born and raised on Grayson, may be subject to indoctrination. Grayson's Cats might not have fully adopted any preconceived notions of the species.


Not for a long time, while memory singers keep the memories alive. The transmission of knowledge and experience is very direct. Moreover, Grayson and Manticore treecats will continue to meet each other, exchanging experiences and memories.


Additionally, as the treecats now know sign language, they can use video messaging to both communicate over long distances, and actually keep recordings / archives which do not depend on memory singers (but are limited to what the language can express).

As Dr. Sharif says, the door to written language may also be oppen now - I'm certain Samantha and some others will experiment with it and Dr. Sharif, but there's no textev for any real results yet.

Finally (and highly speculative), through the injuries of Nimitz, human doctors learned a lot more about how telepathy and telempathy work. Now, as the treecats are cooperative and no longer trying to hide their intelligence, they might even find a way to record and replay telepathic messages. However, there's no hints how telepathy is actually transferred - we can just assume it's neither electromagnetic nor gravitational waves, for two reasons: First, treecat researchers would have actually noticed that kind of transmissions, and second, treecats would have been disturbed by the transmissions issued by human technology (or at least have sensed them).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
At any rate, we certainly cannot dismiss the fact that exposure to the human species will somewhat anthropomorphize treecats, naturally...

"When in Rome..."


And does exposure to treecats cause dentrogatomorphise humans? (from Greek δέντρο "dentro", tree; and γάτα "gata", cat)


Certainly, Honor is a good examle, she herself sometimes claims she's half a treecat by now. And we all are curious how honors children will work out, especially the boy as he has both honors gen mods, and is raised by treecats. :-)
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Re: Religious Treecats
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:42 pm

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markusschaber wrote:Additionally, as the treecats now know sign language, they can use video messaging to both communicate over long distances, and actually keep recordings / archives which do not depend on memory singers (but are limited to what the language can express).

As Dr. Sharif says, the door to written language may also be oppen now - I'm certain Samantha and some others will experiment with it and Dr. Sharif, but there's no textev for any real results yet.


Interesting. I think written language may happen sooner than video messages with sign language. Sign language is very slow and has a very low information density. It might be the first thing they try because it's something they already know, but I don't expect to be adopted for long.

Finally (and highly speculative), through the injuries of Nimitz, human doctors learned a lot more about how telepathy and telempathy work. Now, as the treecats are cooperative and no longer trying to hide their intelligence, they might even find a way to record and replay telepathic messages.


Now that would be something!

Until then, treecats may have come up with a new designation: memory courier. A type of memory singer who travels between planets to update the other memory singers. That might be a job for junior / apprentice singers, actually.
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Re: Religious Treecats
Post by penny   » Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:59 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
penny wrote:It sure doesn't! Not if my experiences are a meter stick! I am telling you!

But for sake of discussion, let's assume there is a such thing as a true Christian who exemplifies everything that being religious should exemplify. Because the reverse of your statement is also true.

And ... if true, then a treecat who recognizes truth would come to know and recognize the true "Christians." And if there are "true Christians" and their mind-glows are strong and tasteful, then surely that might interest a Cat. It might even be the catalyst of a bond.


That's circular reasoning. If you define a "true Christian" (or any other label you'd care to bestow) as a good person, then by definition only good people can have that label.

The point here is not whether the people in question are good examples of their religion. The point is that bad people can also believe wholeheartedly in their religious tenets and use them to justify their actions. So my question was: what would a treecat think of organised religion in general or of one in particular if they are exposed to such a person?

<This two-leg's mindglow is tasty and he does believe in religion. That two-leg's mindglow is horrible and he also believes in religion. Therefore, there's no correlation between religion and mindglow.>

Discerning how the zealot is corrupting the tenets to justify their actions is very philosophical. A treecat living hands of hands of (Sphinx) cycles may decide to take that task up and come up with an understanding, but I figure the majority of them will simply think it's yet another two-legs silly concept.

Maybe what could happen is that a good person person in (to borrow other religions' concept) nirvana and in perfect harmony with their religion could have an even stronger mindglow. But how many of those are there? How can treecats get a significant sample of those to draw a conclusion from?

Also, the person whose mindglow we know to be the strongest is Honor, and she's not very religious.

We must also consider that Grayson's Cats, being born and raised on Grayson, may be subject to indoctrination. Grayson's Cats might not have fully adopted any preconceived notions of the species.


Not for a long time, while memory singers keep the memories alive. The transmission of knowledge and experience is very direct. Moreover, Grayson and Manticore treecats will continue to meet each other, exchanging experiences and memories.

At any rate, we certainly cannot dismiss the fact that exposure to the human species will somewhat anthropomorphize treecats, naturally...

"When in Rome..."


And does exposure to treecats cause dentrogatomorphise humans? (from Greek δέντρο "dentro", tree; and γάτα "gata", cat)

You are missing the point. Treecats are not stupid. A treecat knows that there are some very bad humans.

My point is that a treecat would be able to discern between good and bad people by their emotions and mind-glow. It is the same thing that a pastor has to do. Except that a treecat has tools that a pastor does not.

And the very good Christians should have a very tasty mind-glow because they would closely adhere to the teachings of the Bible, or the Book of The New Way. I do not know of any Book of any religion that contains bad teachings.

Honor is a religious person herself. She was raised in a different church. She did not want to blindly join the CHU until or unless she studies their religion first. It is a conscious decision rooted in respect. But the important thing is that Honor has an enormous supply of morals, scruples and values. Which we must agree is the entry level of a true religious person. True. That is not to say that those characteristics cannot be found in a non religious person. Of course they can be, but they should be found in religion. And for sake of this discussion, we should assume that it will come to be found by Treecats on Grayson among the members of the CHU. It might even be good for the CHU. How does my garden grow? A mirror inside oneself.
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Re: Religious Treecats
Post by Joat42   » Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:13 am

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penny wrote:My point is that a treecat would be able to discern between good and bad people by their emotions and mind-glow.

Nobody has questioned that.

penny wrote:It is the same thing that a pastor has to do. Except that a treecat has tools that a pastor does not.

In no way can you quantify how well a pastor can discern between good and bad, you just made an assumption here based on a personal opinion.

penny wrote:And the very good Christians should have a very tasty mind-glow because they would closely adhere to the teachings of the Bible, or the Book of The New Way.

That does not follow at all, plus there are zero textev for that assertion.

penny wrote:I do not know of any Book of any religion that contains bad teachings.

The Bible contains some very bad stuff like incest, cannibalism, (sex) slavery, rape and other shit. Most "holy writings" contains some horrible stuff no sane person would ever condone which isn't very strange considering how primitive the societies were at the time the writings were created.

penny wrote:But the important thing is that Honor has an enormous supply of morals, scruples and values. Which we must agree is the entry level of a true religious person. True. That is not to say that those characteristics cannot be found in a non religious person. Of course they can be, but they should be found in religion.

That does not follow, unless you only restrict yourself to what you think is a "good Christian person". Even the most pious person can do horrible things because their faith dictates it is good, so in their eyes they did nothing wrong.

A good person is someone, as you say, have morals, scruples and values, religion has really nothing to do with that because if there's one thing religion is responsible for, it is horrible acts and countless murdered people with the condemnation of "they are unbelievers" or "they are different".

So your "true" is based on your own opinion and zero logic.

penny wrote:And for sake of this discussion, we should assume that it will come to be found by Treecats on Grayson among the members of the CHU. It might even be good for the CHU. How does my garden grow? A mirror inside oneself.

What? Are you deciding by fiat that how it's going to be?

Still anthropomorphizing how you think an alien predator species will adopt religion.

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Re: Religious Treecats
Post by Daryl   » Sat Nov 11, 2023 2:29 am

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Well said Joat.
Perhaps I'm over influenced by my lifetime experiences, but the whole concept that good ethics and morality is defined by Christianity is jarring to me. Nearly 60 years after leaving a Christian boarding school (and the faith) the statement 'The Bible says" is triggering to me. As it presaged a beating or similar.
I sought enlightenment, but saw much the same problems with Buddhism, Hindu, Islam, and variants of all. So, I wing it, possibly influenced by Heinleim. Do I grok that an action brings more kindness to more people or less. Harder than just cherry picking some book written millenia ago to follow.
In the Heiesenberg Uncertainty Principle universe concept, that in an infinite universe, an infinite number of options are possible, I just try not to do harm. Sometimes inactivity can cause harm.

Joat42 wrote:
penny wrote:My point is that a treecat would be able to discern between good and bad people by their emotions and mind-glow.

Nobody has questioned that.

penny wrote:It is the same thing that a pastor has to do. Except that a treecat has tools that a pastor does not.

In no way can you quantify how well a pastor can discern between good and bad, you just made an assumption here based on a personal opinion.

penny wrote:And the very good Christians should have a very tasty mind-glow because they would closely adhere to the teachings of the Bible, or the Book of The New Way.

That does not follow at all, plus there are zero textev for that assertion.

penny wrote:I do not know of any Book of any religion that contains bad teachings.

The Bible contains some very bad stuff like incest, cannibalism, (sex) slavery, rape and other shit. Most "holy writings" contains some horrible stuff no sane person would ever condone which isn't very strange considering how primitive the societies were at the time the writings were created.

penny wrote:But the important thing is that Honor has an enormous supply of morals, scruples and values. Which we must agree is the entry level of a true religious person. True. That is not to say that those characteristics cannot be found in a non religious person. Of course they can be, but they should be found in religion.

That does not follow, unless you only restrict yourself to what you think is a "good Christian person". Even the most pious person can do horrible things because their faith dictates it is good, so in their eyes they did nothing wrong.

A good person is someone, as you say, have morals, scruples and values, religion has really nothing to do with that because if there's one thing religion is responsible for, it is horrible acts and countless murdered people with the condemnation of "they are unbelievers" or "they are different".

So your "true" is based on your own opinion and zero logic.

penny wrote:And for sake of this discussion, we should assume that it will come to be found by Treecats on Grayson among the members of the CHU. It might even be good for the CHU. How does my garden grow? A mirror inside oneself.

What? Are you deciding by fiat that how it's going to be?

Still anthropomorphizing how you think an alien predator species will adopt religion.
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Re: Religious Treecats
Post by penny   » Sat Nov 11, 2023 4:33 pm

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penny wrote: The Prodigal Cat

Wasn't there a cat who had been exiled? Or was an outcast? Rebellious?

Am I misremembering that?

At any rate, my warped religious brain toys with the idea of a treecat deciding to willingly become a part of the MA. One who welcomes genetic research. A treecat who has bonded with a Detweiler.

What if this treecat is enlightened? And what if treecat genetic code turns out to be more amenable - and productive - to genetic research? What if treecat DNA really has produced a treecat who is a perfect Alpha?

The Prodigal Cat returns to the treecat species by way of the Grayson Cats.
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Re: Religious Treecats
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Nov 12, 2023 1:16 am

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penny wrote:
penny wrote: The Prodigal Cat

Wasn't there a cat who had been exiled? Or was an outcast? Rebellious?


He was even called "the outcast."

Yes, some treecats can become insane and will be exiled from clans. It's rare because they have healers that can usually cure most of those sanity issues.

At any rate, my warped religious brain toys with the idea of a treecat deciding to willingly become a part of the MA. One who welcomes genetic research. A treecat who has bonded with a Detweiler.


It's not impossible, but where would such a treecat get such a chance? All any of them know about the Alignment is that they exterminated a full clan with the Yawata Strike. All the other information they get is coming through the GA and via those scouts that have either adopted a two-legs or are now bodyguards. There's a selection bias here: the insane treecats or those with murderous tendencies would not get the opportunity to go off-planet.

And just how would the Detweilers come face-to-face with a treecat? Even if they had the opportunity, would they risk that the treecat instead of bonding decide to slash his face?

What if this treecat is enlightened? And what if treecat genetic code turns out to be more amenable - and productive - to genetic research? What if treecat DNA really has produced a treecat who is a perfect Alpha?

The Prodigal Cat returns to the treecat species by way of the Grayson Cats.


Genetic research on a treecat is not impossible. The secret of their DNA is going to eventually get out, it's only a matter of time. Whether RFC writes that before the MAlign is brought down or not is unknown (most likely he won't).

But culture is another thing. The MAlign is not going to be able to kidnap and maintain a live treecat clan that can pass on their culture and thus language and the understanding of mind-glow. If you just cloned a treecat from DNA and grew it in a tank, you'd get a wild / feral treecat that didn't know what to do with the mindglows. It would be like Tarzan: he could hear and make mouth noises, but he didn't speak.
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