Did haven inspire Manticore's stealth recon drones?

penny wrote:One day they simply woke up and had a piracy problem. And you would want to know asap when the pirates arrived. Especially if you had orbital farms with civilians on it. Then they, or very important VIPs like Hauptman, can leave orbit with their beautiful young daughters and hide planetside. Yada yada yada.

A drone still has to be launched from a ship or a station, since it needs to have the plasma capacitors filled and flight information loaded. At best the pirates will be halfway to the planet before the drone can get the information. Either way the pirates can order the planet authorities to stop all ship movements or they will destroy the orbital farms. Any important person or beautiful daughter or handsome son should stay on the ground, giving themselves more time to hide. The drone did not do more than the pirates at announcing pirates were here; if anything the drones did less, because the drone is sub-light speed and the pirate's orders will be light speed.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:One day they simply woke up and had a piracy problem. And you would want to know asap when the pirates arrived. Especially if you had orbital farms with civilians on it. Then they, or very important VIPs like Hauptman, can leave orbit with their beautiful young daughters and hide planetside. Yada yada yada.

A drone still has to be launched from a ship or a station, since it needs to have the plasma capacitors filled and flight information loaded. At best the pirates will be halfway to the planet before the drone can get the information. Either way the pirates can order the planet authorities to stop all ship movements or they will destroy the orbital farms. Any important person or beautiful daughter or handsome son should stay on the ground, giving themselves more time to hide. The drone did not do more than the pirates at announcing pirates were here; if anything the drones did less, because the drone is sub-light speed and the pirate's orders will be light speed.

Huh? Light speed communication in the early HV?

Besides, the VIPs are already in orbit. There are entire families in orbit. Evacuation of orbital facilities take time. The VIPs will be first.

What is the accel of an early pirate ship? Faster than a drone's communication?

penny wrote:Huh? Light speed communication in the early HV?

Besides, the VIPs are already in orbit. There are entire families in orbit. Evacuation of orbital facilities take time. The VIPs will be first.

What is the accel of an early pirate ship? Faster than a drone's communication?

Yes, light speed communication for a poor planet, which is simply two way radio or a laser beam (whatever). Only select, high tech, systems have FTL communication.

They should not be in orbit, precisely because evacuation takes time and the pirates can order that it NOT take place.

What is the acceleration of a drone, I expect it to be less than a pirate if the planet is poor.

Here is the script: The pirates can transition into normal space at the hyper limit and start accelerating toward the planet. The drone is either on a ship or station and it has to be prepared for launch. If the drone is on a ship just inside the hyper-limit; then it does not need to be launched, because the pirates are going to make demands on the ship and clearly identify themselves as pirates (QED). If the drone is on a station near the planet, then it can be launched and will meet the pirates somewhere around the midpoint and send its message. The pirates can then send their message prohibiting an evacuation and identifying themselves as pirates (QED). It does not matter that the drone identified the pirates first, because the pirate demands can arrive before anything can be done.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Huh? Light speed communication in the early HV?

Besides, the VIPs are already in orbit. There are entire families in orbit. Evacuation of orbital facilities take time. The VIPs will be first.

What is the accel of an early pirate ship? Faster than a drone's communication?

Yes, light speed communication for a poor planet, which is simply two way radio or a laser beam (whatever). Only select, high tech, systems have FTL communication.

They should not be in orbit, precisely because evacuation takes time and the pirates can order that it NOT take place.

What is the acceleration of a drone, I expect it to be less than a pirate if the planet is poor.

Here is the script: The pirates can transition into normal space at the hyper limit and start accelerating toward the planet. The drone is either on a ship or station and it has to be prepared for launch. If the drone is on a ship just inside the hyper-limit; then it does not need to be launched, because the pirates are going to make demands on the ship and clearly identify themselves as pirates (QED). If the drone is on a station near the planet, then it can be launched and will meet the pirates somewhere around the midpoint and send its message. The pirates can then send their message prohibiting an evacuation and identifying themselves as pirates (QED). It does not matter that the drone identified the pirates first, because the pirate demands can arrive before anything can be done.

Sorry, I parsed that as FTL.

This is the early HV. I do not know what the first pirate ships were. I didn't think they would be something like a frigate. We're talking the early era of travel where there were generation ships. And I imagined pirates to be your reasonably close neighbor, or some criminal enterprise who has stolen a ship. But those very early ships on the heels of generation ships shouldn't have had too much capability. Not even their sensors had that much range. I didn't think that those early ships could outrun light speed communication. I also wouldn't think the early frigates could see airbreathers leaving the orbitals. Or escape pods.

penny wrote:This is the early HV. I do not know what the first pirate ships were. I didn't think they would be something like a frigate. We're talking the early era of travel where there were generation ships. And I imagined pirates to be your reasonably close neighbor, or some criminal enterprise who has stolen a ship. But those very early ships on the heels of generation ships shouldn't have had too much capability. Not even their sensors had that much range. I didn't think that those early ships could outrun light speed communication. I also wouldn't think the early frigates could see airbreathers leaving the orbitals. Or escape pods.

Airbreathers operating up to an orbital? I think they will have switch to wedge drive after leaving the atmosphere.

No ship, even now, can outrun light speed communication within the hyper-limit. The pirates can send out their demands immediately after the drone says it thinks it sees a pirate. There are not going to be many people that can escape before the pirates are in sensor range (no matter how shortsighted). And any evacuation has to end before the pirates are in sensor range.

The pirate does not have to see an evacuation start to see that there are less people than normal and then a little enhanced interrogation will give answers. If pods are used then they only need to check the number of pods still at the orbital.

Note that your scheme requires the drone be readied and maybe launched every time a tramp freighter makes a call.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:This is the early HV. I do not know what the first pirate ships were. I didn't think they would be something like a frigate. We're talking the early era of travel where there were generation ships. And I imagined pirates to be your reasonably close neighbor, or some criminal enterprise who has stolen a ship. But those very early ships on the heels of generation ships shouldn't have had too much capability. Not even their sensors had that much range. I didn't think that those early ships could outrun light speed communication. I also wouldn't think the early frigates could see airbreathers leaving the orbitals. Or escape pods.

Airbreathers operating up to an orbital? I think they will have switch to wedge drive after leaving the atmosphere.

No ship, even now, can outrun light speed communication within the hyper-limit. The pirates can send out their demands immediately after the drone says it thinks it sees a pirate. There are not going to be many people that can escape before the pirates are in sensor range (no matter how shortsighted). And any evacuation has to end before the pirates are in sensor range.

The pirate does not have to see an evacuation start to see that there are less people than normal and then a little enhanced interrogation will give answers. If pods are used then they only need to check the number of pods still at the orbital.

Note that your scheme requires the drone be readied and maybe launched every time a tramp freighter makes a call.

Yes, airbreathers. I do not know what tech generation ships would have had access to. They may have had to revert back to chemical fired rockets and thrusters. At any rate, escape pods would do the trick. But certainly thrusters only.

It doesn't matter if the pirate is angry and takes it out on the remaining personnel. At least your Queen, Emperor or important government officials who may have been visiting the orbitals will escape. Sacrifice was common in the early days. And the population on the ground would want as much early warning as possible as well. Parents would surely want to collect their kids who may be far away on planet.

penny wrote:It doesn't matter if the pirate is angry and takes it out on the remaining personnel.

If they do destroy the orbitals and debris hits the ground, then I expect that it will matter. The disaffected could easily throw out the Ancien Régime for putting personal attachments over public welfare.

penny wrote:This is the early HV. I do not know what the first pirate ships were. I didn't think they would be something like a frigate. We're talking the early era of travel where there were generation ships. And I imagined pirates to be your reasonably close neighbor, or some criminal enterprise who has stolen a ship. But those very early ships on the heels of generation ships shouldn't have had too much capability. Not even their sensors had that much range. I didn't think that those early ships could outrun light speed communication. I also wouldn't think the early frigates could see airbreathers leaving the orbitals. Or escape pods.

I can't see interstellar pirates being a thing until after hyper travel became reasonably safe.

If it's going to take generations to reach a colony and more generations to bring back any loot - you'd never be able to capture anything worth committing generations of pirates to capture. You can't even use the victim's colony ship to haul away more loot because those were only built for one-way voyages - they're not going survive the long flight back to civilization.

Even after effective cryo-suspension was developed and became widespread what can pirates possibly loot that's worth spending several centuries in cryo-suspension (and how would you be sure that the loot would be valuable after you'd hauled it back to civilization to dispose of it?)

Piracy, or even raiding, wouldn't become economically viable until after hyper travel was refined to the point where you could be reasonably confident you'd be able to raid and get back with loot of sufficient value to justify the up-front costs. Or until there were hyper capable starships you could pirate and then either use to capture more or sell for money along with their cargo.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:This is the early HV. I do not know what the first pirate ships were. I didn't think they would be something like a frigate. We're talking the early era of travel where there were generation ships. And I imagined pirates to be your reasonably close neighbor, or some criminal enterprise who has stolen a ship. But those very early ships on the heels of generation ships shouldn't have had too much capability. Not even their sensors had that much range. I didn't think that those early ships could outrun light speed communication. I also wouldn't think the early frigates could see airbreathers leaving the orbitals. Or escape pods.

I can't see interstellar pirates being a thing until after hyper travel became reasonably safe.

If it's going to take generations to reach a colony and more generations to bring back any loot - you'd never be able to capture anything worth committing generations of pirates to capture. You can't even use the victim's colony ship to haul away more loot because those were only built for one-way voyages - they're not going survive the long flight back to civilization.

Even after effective cryo-suspension was developed and became widespread what can pirates possibly loot that's worth spending several centuries in cryo-suspension (and how would you be sure that the loot would be valuable after you'd hauled it back to civilization to dispose of it?)

Piracy, or even raiding, wouldn't become economically viable until after hyper travel was refined to the point where you could be reasonably confident you'd be able to raid and get back with loot of sufficient value to justify the up-front costs. Or until there were hyper capable starships you could pirate and then either use to capture more or sell for money along with their cargo.

Were the first hyper capable ships frigates?

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I can't see interstellar pirates being a thing until after hyper travel became reasonably safe.

If it's going to take generations to reach a colony and more generations to bring back any loot - you'd never be able to capture anything worth committing generations of pirates to capture. You can't even use the victim's colony ship to haul away more loot because those were only built for one-way voyages - they're not going survive the long flight back to civilization.

Even after effective cryo-suspension was developed and became widespread what can pirates possibly loot that's worth spending several centuries in cryo-suspension (and how would you be sure that the loot would be valuable after you'd hauled it back to civilization to dispose of it?)

Piracy, or even raiding, wouldn't become economically viable until after hyper travel was refined to the point where you could be reasonably confident you'd be able to raid and get back with loot of sufficient value to justify the up-front costs. Or until there were hyper capable starships you could pirate and then either use to capture more or sell for money along with their cargo.

Were the first hyper capable ships frigates?

Well the very first hyper capable ships were undoubtable research vessels and then hyper scouts (like the one that surveyed Manticore before its cryo-sleep colony ship Jason set out.

But we don't have any stories set in the appropriate era to know what people called the first hyper capable warships - nor what their combat capabilities were. However, the earliest ones I think we've had mentioned were called frigates -- the four frigates that Manticoran Colony Trust of Zurich purchased in 1389 PD; and were there to meet the colony ship Jayson when it finally arrived in the Manticore system in 1416.


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Background info


Hyper travel became possible (if still slow and risky) in the 700s PD. But you're still talking years of travel as the early ships could only go at about 2.76 c. They had to use reaction drives and fuel scoop fields (the later didn't work in hyper), so they had very limited ability to accelerate once in hyper. The bulk of their velocity was the residual after (slowly) working up in normal space to 0.3c, the fastest possible speed you can enter hyper, then jumping up to the Beta bands (losing 92% of that velocity entering the Alpha bands and another 85% of the remainder entering the Beta bands -- leaving just 1.2%, or 0.0036c (for an effective 2.76c); plus whatever little they'd add by burning stored fuel.

Hyper travel didn't become safe, and faster, until the late 1200s or early 1300s PD. At that point ships were still limited to the Beta bands, but now thanks to Warshawski detectors, sails, and impellers, they could move much faster in them, allowing effective speeds in the hundreds of times the speed of light.

But we've had no stories set in that time period, so no insight into the first hyper-capable warships. There obviously were ships called frigates pretty early in the safe period of hyper travel; but whether there were warships in the earlier period we don't actually know.

Were any of the ships sent to help Earth after the Final War armed and considered warships?
Maybe.

Did any system build hyper generators into some of their armed 'coast guard' type ships back before warshaski detectors made it safe?
Actually they probably did - especially after impellers were developed. It'd let them move around the outer system far quicker - and they'd know whether the local hyperspace around their system was safe to use.

But we just don't actually know. Nor do we know what weapons, defenses, and sensors those first 4 Manticoran frigates carried - nor how those compared to possible other warship types of the era.