Did haven inspire Manticore's stealth recon drones?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:I think she had a good idea of what she was seeing:

"...suicide--for battlecruisers"

Once the evidence couldn't be denied and Honor couldn't hide too much any longer, yes. That's what tlb posted above.

My point is that early on she was partly seeing through what Honor was trying to hide, but she didn't yet have the confidence in herself to believe her own conclusions. Even if she did, she was too junior to be believed by the flag deck. It was easier to believe the lie that Honor was trying to sell that the GSN was flying battlecruisers to their suicide because it was the only thing they could do.

She was also just a Tac officer on a random Lt Cruiser in the screen. If Warner Catlett, her captain, didn't have the level of confidence in her that he did AND have a personal relationship with the fleet Admiral (Tom Theisman), it would have taken a significant period of time for that knowledge to percolate through either the leadership of the fleet of the CIC channels, and most likely filtered out along the way.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:I think she had a good idea of what she was seeing:

"...suicide--for battlecruisers"

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Once the evidence couldn't be denied and Honor couldn't hide too much any longer, yes. That's what tlb posted above.

My point is that early on she was partly seeing through what Honor was trying to hide, but she didn't yet have the confidence in herself to believe her own conclusions. Even if she did, she was too junior to be believed by the flag deck. It was easier to believe the lie that Honor was trying to sell that the GSN was flying battlecruisers to their suicide because it was the only thing they could do.

Theemile wrote:She was also just a Tac officer on a random Lt Cruiser in the screen. If Warner Catlett, her captain, didn't have the level of confidence in her that he did AND have a personal relationship with the fleet Admiral (Tom Theisman), it would have taken a significant period of time for that knowledge to percolate through either the leadership of the fleet of the CIC channels, and most likely filtered out along the way.

As for as I can tell from the text, there was no appreciable delay in relaying the information. Honor only shifted into the wall formation after she saw the Masada force detach. Once Shannon realized that they were seeing SD's instead of BC's, because of the spacing on the wall formation; she let Caslet know. Caslet immediately reported to Citizen Vice Admiral Alexander Thurston.

Theisman was in the group detached to Masada and so not in the chain of command between Caslet and Thurston.

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:My point is that early on she was partly seeing through what Honor was trying to hide, but she didn't yet have the confidence in herself to believe her own conclusions. Even if she did, she was too junior to be believed by the flag deck. It was easier to believe the lie that Honor was trying to sell that the GSN was flying battlecruisers to their suicide because it was the only thing they could do.

As for as I can tell from the text, there was no appreciable delay in relaying the information. Honor only shifted into the wall formation after she saw the Masada force detach. Once Shannon realized that they were seeing SD's instead of BC's, because of the spacing on the wall formation; she let Caslet know. Caslet immediately reported to Citizen Vice Admiral Alexander Thurston.

Further there is no mention on Shannon Foraker between the end of chapter 18 and the text that's been quoted in chapter 32.

In chapter 18 Vaubon is scouting the Casca system; where she definitely picked up 2 of the ex-Peep ships there; and was moderately confident that at least 5 were. Intel that led the Peeps to believe the GSN SDs weren't at home, and thus they could go ahead and launching the BB attack on Yeltsin.

By the time we see her again in chapter 32 Honor has already set up the trap and it's too late for Thurston's forces to evade. And as already established her warning went up the chain of command about as quickly as you could hope - but it just wasn't issued early enough.


She could well have had suspicions before she uttered the phrase "Something funny going on here, Skip."; but if so they aren't shown in FiE. (And I don't recall any later book mention of such)

Jonathan_S wrote:She could well have had suspicions before she uttered the phrase "Something funny going on here, Skip."; but if so they aren't shown in FiE. (And I don't recall any later book mention of such)

And that's my argument: she was too junior to trust herself earlier than that. She probably did see something on the data earlier (though whether it was early enough is another matter). But she didn't believe where her own conclusions were leading and, moreover, knew that if she brought that up with flimsy evidence, she wouldn't be believed.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:She could well have had suspicions before she uttered the phrase "Something funny going on here, Skip."; but if so they aren't shown in FiE. (And I don't recall any later book mention of such)

And that's my argument: she was too junior to trust herself earlier than that. She probably did see something on the data earlier (though whether it was early enough is another matter). But she didn't believe where her own conclusions were leading and, moreover, knew that if she brought that up with flimsy evidence, she wouldn't be believed.

Could be, but since there's no text-ev for that it is just speculation. (Plausible speculation, but speculation)

I think the tone of the responses was because your post made it sound like (rather than speculating, or advancing an argument) you were stating a known fact -- that we all should have remembered reading in Flag in Exile about her delay in alerting people to what she was seeing and how that allowed Honor's trick to work.

Jonathan_S wrote:Could be, but since there's no text-ev for that it is just speculation. (Plausible speculation, but speculation)

I think the tone of the responses was because your post made it sound like (rather than speculating, or advancing an argument) you were stating a known fact -- that we all should have remembered reading in Flag in Exile about her delay in alerting people to what she was seeing and how that allowed Honor's trick to work.

Ah, sorry, no. It was speculation or extrapolation.

I disagree that Shannon wasted time not believing what she was seeing. The sequence goes:

1) about 28 minutes before Point Luck, Honor's taskforce starts to shift formation.

2) this takes time.

3) Shannon notices something, she tracks 6 "battlecruisers" and realizes that they have dropped in to a vertical wall of battle (notice that she picked this out of all of the battlecruisers jumping around while Honor's SDs were moving into that formation).

4) we have the conversation between her and Caslet.

5) we have the conversation between Admiral Thurston and his Ops officer. Thurston stares at his plot, at the SDs he had blundered his way into their range.

6) Point Luck - Honor's taskforce opens fire.

I would tend to think that stealthy buoys and drones inspired themselves. In the early history of the HV, I always thought navigation buoys would be broadcasting some sort of warning to traffic to keep from having to replace them because they were run over like construction cones placed in the street.

But then, belligerents would intentionally destroy them along with infrastructure. I can see some pirate using them for target practice. So, a stealthy buoy was born.

Same with recon drones. If you suspected a threat from a whisper of a contact at the edge of your system, you sent a drone to check it out. It was shot down.

So, I tend to think the necessity of stealth is a byproduct of the mother of invention.

edit: throat to threat


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penny wrote:I would tend to think that stealthy buoys and drones inspired themselves. In the early history of the HV, I always thought navigation buoys would be broadcasting some sort of warning to traffic to keep from having to replace them because they were run over like construction cones placed in the street.

But then, belligerents would intentionally destroy them along with infrastructure. I can see some pirate using them for target practice. So, a stealthy buoy was born.

The need for a stealthy recon drone is obvious. But how exactly, would a stealthy navigation buoy work? Turn off the signal and it is no longer helpful for navigation.

PS: The "Mother of Invention" gives birth to ideas, it is a strange mother that has byproducts.

penny wrote:I would tend to think that stealthy buoys and drones inspired themselves. In the early history of the HV, I always thought navigation buoys would be broadcasting some sort of warning to traffic to keep from having to replace them because they were run over like construction cones placed in the street.

But then, belligerents would intentionally destroy them along with infrastructure. I can see some pirate using them for target practice. So, a stealthy buoy was born.

tlb wrote:The need for a stealthy recon drone is obvious. But how exactly, would a stealthy navigation buoy work? Turn off the signal and it is no longer helpful for navigation.

Exactly! Akin to the age of sail when you turned off the beacon in the lighthouse to let enemy ships crash into the rocky shores. Dunno how that would work in the HV. Unless everyone you expected to visit had codes to temporarily activate the beacon.

I am none too sure recon drones employed any amount of stealth in their early primitive form. You just wanted to get something out there asap to give you enough of a warning against pirates.

tlb wrote:PS: The "Mother of Invention" gives birth to ideas, it is a strange mother that has byproducts.

Those byproducts can also be strange, but we really shouldn't blame the mother.

There may be times a strange mother is needed to birth mind-blowing strange solutions. See the Detweilers who certainly had a very strange mother. Who beget some very strange, but practical, formidable solutions.