Axelrod and SKM relationship

kzt wrote:Well, maybe. fifthimperium.com seems to have crashed and I can't view the article where David tries to explain where the 12 hour limit in MoH comes from, because it was significantly closer a few books earlier.

Theemile wrote:

kzt wrote:Well, maybe. fifthimperium.com seems to have crashed and I can't view the article where David tries to explain where the 12 hour limit in MoH comes from, because it was significantly closer a few books earlier.

In broad strokes, isn't the 12 light hour the internationally recognized ownership of the system, and the 12 light day is your space limit if you have the ability to patrol/control it?

runsforcelery wrote:I realize there's been some confusion on this topic. Partly, it's my fault because I "knew" what I was doing and didn't write it down in the tech bible, which left me without a hard-and-fast reference and led me to misuse the terms myself on occasion. More of it though results from the fact that there are two limits which have different functions/applications.

One is the 12-hour limit — that is, a sphere six light hours across, centered on the star. This is the volume in which a star system claims sovereignty: any natural resources, habitats, wormholes, etc., within that sphere legally “belong” to the system in question. There is a caveat to this, in that various admiralty courts have held that to exercise that claim, the star system in question must hold “a tangible, genuine police power” throughout the volume. That is, if your star nation isn’t capable of at least patrolling the volume (LACs will do for this purpose), then you have no recourse in interstellar court against someone else who exploits a resource or establishes a habitat in that region. You can issue all the injunctions you want domestically, but you cannot file charges in the courts of the star nation to which the violator belongs or in any of the recognized interstellar courts (actually arbitration panels more than anything else) unless you can demonstrate that you have the power to police/patrol the volume yourself. Once you acquire that power, your claim to anything within that volume becomes paramount. Within this sphere, actually attacking or damaging citizens or facilities, or pillaging natural resources (poaching in an asteroid belt, whatever) becomes a criminal act (if it’s a private violator) or an act of war (if it’s another star nation), but the right of free navigation extends to all parties so long as they refrain from any criminal act or act of war. The municipal law of the claiming star nation governs actions there, crimes are to be tried in the courts of the claiming star nation, etc., but simply passage through the region is a common right of all starships. This can be thought of as the equivalent of our current notion of Exclusive Economic Zones applied to star systems.

The other is the 12-minute limit — that is a sphere defined as extending 12 light-minutes beyond the star’s hyper limit (or up to around 35-40 light-minutes from the primary. This is the zone in which freedom of passage is not a common right. Warships of another star nation, for example, may not cross the 12-minute limit without identifying themselves and requesting right of passage (the SLN frequently ignores this provision, by the way). All commercial/private ships become subject to inspection, traffic laws, commercial law, taxes, etc. Critical industrial facilities, population centers, etc., are normally located within the 12-minute limit for reasons of military security, and “crossing the limit” without identifying one’s self is a violation of international law for a merchant vessel and an act of war by a warship. This may be thought of as the 12-mile limit recognized by the 1982 UN Convention on Law of the Sea, again applied to star systems.

Most wormholes lie between 5 and 8 light-hours from the primary with which they are associated. There are “outliers” which are nearer or farther away, of course, but that’s the “zone” in which most are located. Clearly, this straddles the 12-hour limit, which was established long before there were wormholes to worry about. Wormholes beyond the 12-hour limit may be legally claimed by anyone, but the “home court” advantage usually means they end up belonging to the star systems associated with them. Wormholes within the 12-hour limit come under the provisions of the limit. Technically, the MWJ lies outside the limit, which is one reason it’s as heavily fortified and picketed as it is. The SEM “owns” the MWJ, even though it is outside the limit, and has the firepower to make its ownership stick. The right of freedom of passage does not apply to wormhole junctions, which is yet another source of friction between the SEM and SL

Technically, the MWJ lies outside the limit, which is one reason it’s as heavily fortified and picketed as it is. The SEM “owns” the MWJ, even though it is outside the limit, and has the firepower to make its ownership stick.

kzt wrote:

Technically, the MWJ lies outside the limit, which is one reason it’s as heavily fortified and picketed as it is. The SEM “owns” the MWJ, even though it is outside the limit, and has the firepower to make its ownership stick.

That was the point I was making.

Technically the SEM has no claim on the terminus. So if someone else finds it and claims it first they can't take them to court and expect to win. And the SKM fleet at the time was hardly awe-inspiring. So the obvious solution is to get someone with reasonable military to garrison the site and make the SKM attack them if they want it that bad.

Beowulf would be ideal, as they are a SL member. But there are many others.

If the corp is putting in the money to develop the site and support the fleet they would get a cut of the fees, as would the star nation holding it. Exact breakdown is 'negotiable'. And if the SKM wants a piece of that stream of money, well, they will offer them a reasonable portion in exchange for their agreement that it belongs to someone else.

Technically, the MWJ lies outside the limit, which is one reason it’s as heavily fortified and picketed as it is. The SEM “owns” the MWJ, even though it is outside the limit, and has the firepower to make its ownership stick.

kzt wrote:That was the point I was making.

Technically the SEM has no claim on the terminus. So if someone else finds it and claims it first they can't take them to court and expect to win.

And the SKM fleet at the time was hardly awe-inspiring. So the obvious solution is to get someone with reasonable military to garrison the site and make the SKM attack them if they want it that bad.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:so I don't think you're going to find any polity with that level of forces before you hit the League space.

kzt wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:so I don't think you're going to find any polity with that level of forces before you hit the League space.

Luckily the first terminus is in the SL. It would be convenient to work with Beowulf, but it isn't necessarily. You just need someone who can bring enough force to make Manticore think they should make a deal.

And if not, well, forts are more powerful than SDs and a large core world can crew a few dozen forts that pay for themselves in collected fees. And if you beat up a SL star nation by invading it's territory (and SL courts will agree the junction was not the property of the SKM), well, that's what the SLN is for.