[Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command

kzt wrote:
Typically you have to crew your ship with citizen of the flag you fly, and at the very least the officers need to be credentialed by the flag state. I'm sure they are not citizens of the SKM, not so sure about the SEM. Last I remember they were more a territory than a member.

I seem to recall the same. That the Andermani side of the partition was working to directly absorb the Silesian systems into the Andermani empire, but Manticore was running their half as a protectorate.

Once things stabilize Silesian systems will likely be able to petition to join the SEM, subject to the public referendum and agreements that the Talbott systems went through - but at the moment I don't think they are citizens of the SEM. And if they're not citizen then I don't think their merchant marine could be Manticoran flagged.


(Though there's nothing stopping Manticore from providing them the same low Junction transit rates that Manticoran ships enjoy -- however they likely can't so easily get them those same preferred rates at all the independent wormholes where Manticore enjoys them)

Jonathan_S wrote:

kzt wrote:
Typically you have to crew your ship with citizen of the flag you fly, and at the very least the officers need to be credentialed by the flag state. I'm sure they are not citizens of the SKM, not so sure about the SEM. Last I remember they were more a territory than a member.

I seem to recall the same. That the Andermani side of the partition was working to directly absorb the Silesian systems into the Andermani empire, but Manticore was running their half as a protectorate.

Once things stabilize Silesian systems will likely be able to petition to join the SEM, subject to the public referendum and agreements that the Talbott systems went through - but at the moment I don't think they are citizens of the SEM. And if they're not citizen then I don't think their merchant marine could be Manticoran flagged.


(Though there's nothing stopping Manticore from providing them the same low Junction transit rates that Manticoran ships enjoy -- however they likely can't so easily get them those same preferred rates at all the independent wormholes where Manticore enjoys them)

IIIRL, there are US flagged vessels, and there are vessels flagged in the Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas, which are nominally independent but t have a "special relationship" with the United States. The relationship is looser than the Trusteeship established after WWII, but is not fully independent. That may be an interim model for the Manticoran limp of the SC, while they get sorted out, and come up with an acceptable permanent resolution.

Fun thread idea... and were I Sarnow -- and not having a whole lot of trust in anything the SCN has had it's thumbs in (all the way up to the elbows in corruption in so many systems...) and especially with the genetic slave trade having flourished in the dark corners for centuries?

Why, I think I'd make a bit of a deal with Torch to supply local basing, resupply, and whatever the Hauptman Cartel whiz kids are willing to build in yards not directly in Manticore. A few frigates or something similar to what Granny Els and her crew are running here and there with Torch trained crews? Spooky, yes? Later on as a system becomes trusted, they can start building whatever the successor to a Roland might look like at the DL level.

Plus lots and lots of deep space monitoring web tech and deployment tenders so that said pirates, slavers (and or MAlign ships) do not nearly as much space with which to sneak around and cause trouble.

Thoughts?

SharkHunter wrote:Fun thread idea... and were I Sarnow -- and not having a whole lot of trust in anything the SCN has had it's thumbs in (all the way up to the elbows in corruption in so many systems...) and especially with the genetic slave trade having flourished in the dark corners for centuries?

Why, I think I'd make a bit of a deal with Torch to supply local basing, resupply, and whatever the Hauptman Cartel whiz kids are willing to build in yards not directly in Manticore. A few frigates or something similar to what Granny Els and her crew are running here and there with Torch trained crews? Spooky, yes? Later on as a system becomes trusted, they can start building whatever the successor to a Roland might look like at the DL level.

Plus lots and lots of deep space monitoring web tech and deployment tenders so that said pirates, slavers (and or MAlign ships) do not nearly as much space with which to sneak around and cause trouble.

Thoughts?

Torch is tiny. They literally can’t crew a destroyer squadron. The ships they got given after being captured would take something like 300% of the torch navy to operate.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to make mutual arrangements with the Alderman Empire to detain for return any former SCN ships -and their crews- from the side of the boarder. That insures the ships are dealt with and the crews have a less of a chance to being pushed into a pirate life though it still leaves the more disaffected people as possible recruits to groups of their home planets to resist the assimilation into SEM etc.

Of course it all depends on what the actual agreement between SEM and IAE were in the division of Silesia and specifically things like ANY SCN etc ships & materials belonging to units formerly based in systems on on one side of that border now "belong" to the Empire that now holds the system. Giving the ships (and crews) back helps eliminate potential pirate ships though it's not clear if the IAN is going to want to scrap the SCN ships they get as that has not been mentioned.

Torch could be helpful in rooting out slavery related problems but that is probably more in the intelligence and enforcement areas. That's a lot of new planets and systems to start investigating essentially from scratch.

Sarnow (and the politicians/Navy/ONI) still have to decide where and when to start setting up repair and construction yards with all the attendant needs for security. That includes all the fabrication of equipment needed and training the people who will be working in both the fabrication and building/repairing ships. As in Talbot, they are going to need to set up screening and training for people to join SEM armed forces, etc.

How, exactly, is Manticore going to take over and police what was being operated as the Customs and Astro Control organizations at System and Sector levels?
Always so many questions.

kzt wrote:Torch is tiny. They literally can’t crew a destroyer squadron. The ships they got given after being captured would take something like 300% of the torch navy to operate.

And besides, they already have far more modern frigates than the ex-SCN yards could build in the short-time. Besides, if the RTN wants ships, the best supplier for them is the actual RMN. All the navies in the GA are now overweight and, without an active war, need to stand down units. Giving some of them to Torch means they are actually active and patrolling, looking for the MAlign.

If the RTN can crew them, of course.

Well, maybe they take another page from what Grayson did: pay the salaries of seconded crew and officers from the RMN, GSN or RHN. Money doesn't appear to be a problem for Torch; only experience.

Brigade XO wrote:It wouldn't be a bad idea to make mutual arrangements with the Alderman Empire to detain for return any former SCN ships -and their crews- from the side of the boarder. That insures the ships are dealt with and the crews have a less of a chance to being pushed into a pirate life though it still leaves the more disaffected people as possible recruits to groups of their home planets to resist the assimilation into SEM etc.

I didn't understand you here, even after reading the paragraph a few times. Detain which crews, and on which side of the border? Do you mean the Andermani should detain crews of the Andermani side on the Andermani side? I expect that they've already done that, the SCN units on their side became part of the IAN and probably got decommissioned like the Sarnow story.

Do you mean detain Manticore-side ships on the Andermani side? Why What do the Andermani gain from that? They don't want those ships any more than Manticore.

The crews themselves who weren't from a single system were probably broken up and sent home. Maybe they got the option of choosing which citizenship they wanted too.

Of course it all depends on what the actual agreement between SEM and IAE were in the division of Silesia and specifically things like ANY SCN etc ships & materials belonging to units formerly based in systems on on one side of that border now "belong" to the Empire that now holds the system. Giving the ships (and crews) back helps eliminate potential pirate ships though it's not clear if the IAN is going to want to scrap the SCN ships they get as that has not been mentioned.

Right, we don't know if they divided the SCN at all. Like I said, neither side wants those ships, so I guess the fair solution would be to divide the cost of decommissioning them too. I suppose it's possible the agreement also says they can't sell the ships, they have to be decommissioned and broken up.

Torch could be helpful in rooting out slavery related problems but that is probably more in the intelligence and enforcement areas. That's a lot of new planets and systems to start investigating essentially from scratch.

Sure, but nothing new. The Audubon Ballroom and the Anti-Slavery League had been active in the region for centuries. Torch's foundation does not change that at all.

Previously, Torch wouldn't have had permission fro the Confederation to operate warships in their territory, like Manticore and the Andermani could. Now, those GA members may give that permission, but what's the gain? Specifically, I don't think that's the best use of the RTN. The ex-Confederation territory is now being officially patrolled by IAN and RMN units, and besides there are probably bigger hotspots where the RTN could make a bigger impact.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:It wouldn't be a bad idea to make mutual arrangements with the Alderman Empire to detain for return any former SCN ships -and their crews- from the side of the boarder. That insures the ships are dealt with and the crews have a less of a chance to being pushed into a pirate life though it still leaves the more disaffected people as possible recruits to groups of their home planets to resist the assimilation into SEM etc.

I didn't understand you here, even after reading the paragraph a few times. Detain which crews, and on which side of the border? Do you mean the Andermani should detain crews of the Andermani side on the Andermani side? I expect that they've already done that, the SCN units on their side became part of the IAN and probably got decommissioned like the Sarnow story.

Do you mean detain Manticore-side ships on the Andermani side? Why What do the Andermani gain from that? They don't want those ships any more than Manticore.

The crews themselves who weren't from a single system were probably broken up and sent home. Maybe they got the option of choosing which citizenship they wanted too.

Sorry, just thinking in terms of eliminating SCN ships that would try decamping to the other side of the IAE or SEM boarder in Silesia to claim some sort of refugee or political asylum status even if it was only a ruse to find shelter before becoming pirates., Your correct, IAN would have as little use for the former Confed Navy ships as Manticore does- at best they are scrap with a lot of pieces that could be problems if sold to pirates etc. Neither side probably wants the individuals who actually were defecting (and stealing hyper capable ships in the process) but they do represent a trained pool of spacers/military who could be a problem if they throw in with pirates or any of the potential independence movements in the various systems of the now partitioned Silesia.
Probably overthinking this ...big smile.

Brigade XO wrote:Sorry, just thinking in terms of eliminating SCN ships that would try decamping to the other side of the IAE or SEM boarder in Silesia to claim some sort of refugee or political asylum status even if it was only a ruse to find shelter before becoming pirates., Your correct, IAN would have as little use for the former Confed Navy ships as Manticore does- at best they are scrap with a lot of pieces that could be problems if sold to pirates etc. Neither side probably wants the individuals who actually were defecting (and stealing hyper capable ships in the process) but they do represent a trained pool of spacers/military who could be a problem if they throw in with pirates or any of the potential independence movements in the various systems of the now partitioned Silesia.
Probably overthinking this ...big smile.

I don't think any of that makes sense. The crews don't own the hardware they're operating. If an ex-SCN ship from side A came to side B and asked for asylum, the government of B could consider granting it, but the ship itself should be returned to the owner, as they're allies (this is not the case of The Hunt for the Red October). Sure, the fact that neither side wants the ship means that the government A might just say "go ahead and scrap it", avoiding the cost of a passage crew.

The individuals themselves, one of the two sides must accept. Those people were citizens of the Confederation, so they must now be citizens of one of the two sides. A crew requesting political asylum may be a political hot-potato by itself because those two sides are allies. Ttechnically, the Manticore side isn't incorporated into the Empire just yet, it's a protectorate and may vote to join the SEM, but that could open up for the possibility of a crew of one of those systems can claim they want to join the Andermani side because their home system won't be voting to join the SEM. The Andermani may therefore grant such petition, but it would probably be treated as regular immigration rather than asylum.

As for wanting them, I actually think that both sides should want the majority of the crew. As you're saying, they are a pool of trained spacers and that's not something to be ignored. I said "majority" because you're right that some of those might be bad apples, and in particular any officers that had corruption and piracy issues. The general enlisted crew probably doesn't have their hands in large-scale corruption, because they can't offer much in return.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
As for wanting them, I actually think that both sides should want the majority of the crew. As you're saying, they are a pool of trained spacers and that's not something to be ignored. I said "majority" because you're right that some of those might be bad apples, and in particular any officers that had corruption and piracy issues. The general enlisted crew probably doesn't have their hands in large-scale corruption, because they can't offer much in return.

I'd offer every one under the rank Admiral the option to re-enlist or retire at their will, and put them through a set of testing and training to see where they are at and remediate their knowledge vs RMN baseline, then put them in the full fleet personnel roster, and assign them across the empire. Most will probably end up spending the better part of a year in training, but the RMN is also short hulls currently.

Most of the admirals I would just retire, as with any known troublemakers.