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[Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command

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Re: [Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command
Post by kzt   » Tue May 02, 2023 11:27 am

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The problem is that they are not a part of Manticore. It's like the US Army moving everyone in the Iraqi army into US units in 2003. It's at least a plan (so an advance over what was really done), but I suspect a bad plan.
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Re: [Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue May 02, 2023 6:53 pm

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kzt wrote:The problem is that they are not a part of Manticore. It's like the US Army moving everyone in the Iraqi army into US units in 2003. It's at least a plan (so an advance over what was really done), but I suspect a bad plan.


The ConFed Navy has generally been portrayed as a not quite up to snuff organization which has a lot of difficulty dealing with pirates (possibly as a number of them are either actual pirates or are partnering in some way with pirates AN OR they do a truly crappy job trying to sub various "revolutionary" groups scattered though Silesia looking to either throw out the current bosses of their own systems or breaking away from the Confederacy.

So it is possible that you can entice people who hold the ideals of what the Confederacy Navy was supposed to be doing to enlist in the RMN (or IAN depending on what side of the dividing line they came from). Yes, they are trained spacers even if much of what we have heard is that their effectiveness in dealing with pirates or squashing uprisings is very poor.

Talbot isn't the same type of animal. The quadrant (most of it) voted to join SKM and at least in the short term people are being recruited for the various SEM militaries with the primary downside is the need to bring up the training and edcuacation of most of the people who are volunteering. And SEM is addressing that. In Silesia it's sort of depicted as having to winnow out the actual problem people and crushing the criminal side. Remember this is the place that Manticore sent a lot of it's navy to both protect shipping and blood it's people in commerce protection and outright warfare against pirates and the occasional revolt agains a system's leadership (or ownership) in sofar as that caused problems in commerce in generals and MMM shipping in particular.

You need to sort to the people who are willing to make the change to eliminate the ones who believe they can continue the old ways within the new system.
That Sarnow and company is targeting corruption and trying to put into place verifiable systems of accountability and oversight is great. Getting it up and running is the challenge.
I belive there was a clear path from Protectorate (and the SL made that a truly nasty word) to SEM member system but part of that is convincing a lot of people that SEM actually works this way and will be effective in enforcing -evenly and uniformly without all sorts of favoritism that has been a ConFed operations style.
We shall see.
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Re: [Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue May 02, 2023 7:32 pm

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kzt wrote:The problem is that they are not a part of Manticore. It's like the US Army moving everyone in the Iraqi army into US units in 2003. It's at least a plan (so an advance over what was really done), but I suspect a bad plan.

Yeah. Can't see pulling ex-SCN personnel who aren't SEM subjects into the RMN. Now are at least a few likely to naturalize into the SEM and join the RMN? Seems likely -- but that's not a short term solution for the vast majority of the ex-SCN personnel.

But you don't just want to let them all go immediately - that'd cause massive economic shocks to them and to the planetary economies in the Silesian protectorate.
Be better to retain them in non hyper-capable planetary militia, or coast guard type units, or something - and then focus training on making them desirably civilian industry hires as their enlistment periods end (and not letting most or all reenlist; so they're let go at the end of their current enlistment). That lets those units just dissolve down to a more reasonable size over time; or even dissolve away away entirely. (And you'd be letting officers go as enlisted personnel under them left)

By providing training and transition assistance and spreading the downsizing over time you lessen the economic impacts. That, hopefully, reduces the level of disgruntlement and number of ex-SCN who might turn to working for slavers or pirates to get paid and stick one to the Manties.
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Re: [Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command
Post by kzt   » Tue May 02, 2023 8:11 pm

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I'd open recruiting to Confed Navy personnel. After a background investigation. With their getting SEM citizenship after x years, etc.

Probably E1-E6 as long as they have no major flags, going through recruit and tech training as they would if they came from the RMA. With rapid advancement towards their previous rank if they show they deserve it. Senior enlisted on a case by case basis.

Officers O1-O3 but going through OCS as if they were a SEM civilian or RMA transfer.

More and senior senior officers on a case by case and only if there are RMN offers to vouch for them and no contrary flags found.

Possibly organize the rest into a coast guard like organization to do SAR and system patrolling.
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Re: [Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Jun 10, 2023 2:27 am

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kzt wrote:I'd open recruiting to Confed Navy personnel. After a background investigation. With their getting SEM citizenship after x years, etc.

Probably E1-E6 as long as they have no major flags, going through recruit and tech training as they would if they came from the RMA. With rapid advancement towards their previous rank if they show they deserve it. Senior enlisted on a case by case basis.

Officers O1-O3 but going through OCS as if they were a SEM civilian or RMA transfer.

More and senior senior officers on a case by case and only if there are RMN offers to vouch for them and no contrary flags found.

Possibly organize the rest into a coast guard like organization to do SAR and system patrolling.


And at some point, a causal encounter with a counter-intelligence specialist with a tree cat. Maybe even several such encounters, divided between criminal investigation and counter-intelligence.
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Re: [Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Jun 10, 2023 2:30 am

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kzt wrote:Possibly organize the rest into a coast guard like organization to do SAR and system patrolling.


Sounds like MPARS.

Speaking of which, whatever happened to MPARS, between the time of Travis and the time of Honor? Did they get swept up into Astro Control?
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Re: [Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:18 am

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Fox2! wrote:
kzt wrote:Possibly organize the rest into a coast guard like organization to do SAR and system patrolling.


Sounds like MPARS.

Speaking of which, whatever happened to MPARS, between the time of Travis and the time of Honor? Did they get swept up into Astro Control?

We don't actually know - but I wouldn't be surprised if their former duties actually ended up split up, with areas near planets/stations/etc. being assigned to local assets be they planetary, station, or Astro-Control as SAR and patrol there could be handled by shuttles and pinnaces based in those locations; then the RMN handling all the longer ranged ship-based stuff.

OTOH it might all have gone to the Navy. After all we know that Basilisk Station had (or was supposed to have) a naval customs and security detachment at the terminus. That said, Basilisk Control had some of their own small craft, so I'm not sure whether they had any formal SAR and patrol duties for those. But skimming through OBS I see that the head of Basilisk Astro-Control "was responsible for the smooth running of the terminus' traffic, period. The rest of the Basilisk System was the Navy's concern" I just don't know whether that smooth running would include patrol, and if necessary SAR, using Astro-control resources. But at minimum at Basilisk any patrol and SAR near the planet doesn't seem to belong to Astro-Control; though presumably if something went wrong and the navy ships weren't nearby the Medusa based small craft would be launched to assist -- whether or not it was their formal duty.
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Re: [Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:46 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:OTOH it might all have gone to the Navy. After all we know that Basilisk Station had (or was supposed to have) a naval customs and security detachment at the terminus. That said, Basilisk Control had some of their own small craft, so I'm not sure whether they had any formal SAR and patrol duties for those. But skimming through OBS I see that the head of Basilisk Astro-Control "was responsible for the smooth running of the terminus' traffic, period. The rest of the Basilisk System was the Navy's concern" I just don't know whether that smooth running would include patrol, and if necessary SAR, using Astro-control resources. But at minimum at Basilisk any patrol and SAR near the planet doesn't seem to belong to Astro-Control; though presumably if something went wrong and the navy ships weren't nearby the Medusa based small craft would be launched to assist -- whether or not it was their formal duty.


The problem though is that Basilisk was a protectorate, so even if something equivalent to MPARS still existed in the MBS side, it wouldn't necessarily exist in Basilisk. The opposition to the governments had made it impossible to complete the annexation of the system into the regular Star Kingdom territories, so it was in a state of limbo, in particular before OBS, in spite of King Roger's naming of his daughter, Princess Elizabeth, as Grand Duchess of Basilisk.
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Re: [Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command
Post by justdave   » Sun Jun 11, 2023 12:41 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:OTOH it might all have gone to the Navy. After all we know that Basilisk Station had (or was supposed to have) a naval customs and security detachment at the terminus. That said, Basilisk Control had some of their own small craft, so I'm not sure whether they had any formal SAR and patrol duties for those. But skimming through OBS I see that the head of Basilisk Astro-Control "was responsible for the smooth running of the terminus' traffic, period. The rest of the Basilisk System was the Navy's concern" I just don't know whether that smooth running would include patrol, and if necessary SAR, using Astro-control resources. But at minimum at Basilisk any patrol and SAR near the planet doesn't seem to belong to Astro-Control; though presumably if something went wrong and the navy ships weren't nearby the Medusa based small craft would be launched to assist -- whether or not it was their formal duty.


The problem though is that Basilisk was a protectorate, so even if something equivalent to MPARS still existed in the MBS side, it wouldn't necessarily exist in Basilisk. The opposition to the governments had made it impossible to complete the annexation of the system into the regular Star Kingdom territories, so it was in a state of limbo, in particular before OBS, in spite of King Roger's naming of his daughter, Princess Elizabeth, as Grand Duchess of Basilisk.


from the wiki on RM A-C

Search and Rescue

As a secondary responsibility, ACS also controlled intrasystem civilian search-and-rescue craft for any space-based emergency response. (Companion)
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Re: [Spoilers] 1920 PD – Silesian Command
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:47 am

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justdave wrote:
from the wiki on RM A-C

Search and Rescue

As a secondary responsibility, ACS also controlled intrasystem civilian search-and-rescue craft for any space-based emergency response. (Companion)

Thanks - just checked HoS and I see that's a direct quote - though specicially in the section about the Manticore Wormhole Junction (possibly a sub-section of the Manticore Binary System) -- making it sound like ACS might only have that responsibility around the Junction and in Manticore A & B.

Also SAR craft (rather than SAR ships) makes it sound like this might be just pinnaces and shuttles, leaving much of the system those civilian SAR assets couldn't cover well. And even it includes some full up ships the intrasystem part makes it sound like they wouldn't be hyper-capable - so no micro jumping around the hyper limit (or from the Junction to the hyper limit) for faster response.

That leads me to wonder how much of the MBS has primary SAR responsibility formally assigned to the military.
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