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Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change

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Re: Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:24 am

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Fox2! wrote:
Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
(snip of Fox2!'s original which mentioned morganatic marriage)

Morganatic?! IMHO, that is a concept not found in the Star Kingdom. That was a feature of "more noble than thou" dynasties in Central and Eastern Europe. Thus any of Michael and Judith's children (Ruth doesn't count since she is Michael's step daughter) will before Caitrin in the succession.



Is Judith ever addressed/referred to as the Duchess Serisberg?


I don't remembering her appearing in any stories other than "Promised Land" and "Ruthless". However, she does appear in the People list in _House of Steel_ as Lady Judith Newland Winton, Duchess Winton-Serisburg.
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Re: Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change
Post by chotabhai807   » Mon Feb 20, 2023 1:20 am

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Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change: In the novel "Uncompromising Honor," Michelle Henke's succession rank is referred to as third in line to the throne, a change from her previous designation as fifth in line. The change is mentioned by the Detweilers and a group investigating the existence of the "Other Guys" in Old Chicago on Earth.
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Re: Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Feb 20, 2023 1:53 pm

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chotabhai807 wrote:Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change: In the novel "Uncompromising Honor," Michelle Henke's succession rank is referred to as third in line to the throne, a change from her previous designation as fifth in line. The change is mentioned by the Detweilers and a group investigating the existence of the "Other Guys" in Old Chicago on Earth.


Hello chotabhai807

Welcome to the forum!

This is exactly what we're discussing here and we think that the Detweilers are wrong. She can't be the third in line to the throne at that time, for all we know. Crown Prince Roger, Princess Joanna, the Duke of Serisburg (Prince Michael), and Mike's own mother should come ahead of her in the line of succession.
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Re: Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:05 am

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chotabhai807 wrote:Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change: In the novel "Uncompromising Honor," Michelle Henke's succession rank is referred to as third in line to the throne, a change from her previous designation as fifth in line. The change is mentioned by the Detweilers and a group investigating the existence of the "Other Guys" in Old Chicago on Earth.


There are two possible explanations for this error. One, some reason, those people hadn't heard of Elizabeth's two children. Two, David Weber forgot about those 2 children (though the wife of the Crown Prince appears on stage in an earlier section of _Uncompromising Honor_).
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change
Post by markusschaber   » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:00 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Though there is a special rule in the Constitution: the monarch must be married to a commoner. So what happens to their position in the line of succession if they marry a noble? Caitrin Henke married a noble who either was or later became Earl Gold Peak, so maybe she got removed from the line. It doesn't look like it, because when we meet Mike, she's introduced as being in line for the throne after her older brother and her mother. However, once Edward Henke died and she became a widow, she would have got reinstated, as the precedent of Queen Elizabeth II's accession showed (she was a widow of a noble).


As far as I remember, this has also been discussed "in universe" in one of the Manticore Ascendent books, exactly on the case of Queen Elizabeth II, when the remaining two higher ranked heirs died in a racing boat accident. The constitution left some room of interpretation, and the opposition tried to use that leverage, but failed as Queen Elizabeth II managed to establish the interpretation that someone who becomes first rank heir after marrying does not violate the constitutional requirement.
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Re: Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:04 pm

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markusschaber wrote:As far as I remember, this has also been discussed "in universe" in one of the Manticore Ascendent books, exactly on the case of Queen Elizabeth II, when the remaining two higher ranked heirs died in a racing boat accident. The constitution left some room of interpretation, and the opposition tried to use that leverage, but failed as Queen Elizabeth II managed to establish the interpretation that someone who becomes first rank heir after marrying does not violate the constitutional requirement.


Indeed. The opposition was trying to get her to remarry because the wording in the Constitution wasn't very clear. It could have been interpreted as "if you marry, it must be a commoner" or as "you must marry a commoner." Moreover, there was a question of who the father of the heir could be: had that to be a commoner? In the end, she pushed through an amendment (after Earl Breakwater's fall from grace) that the rule was the former: if she married while Queen, it would need to be a commoner. She didn't remarry at all, plus she used her late husband's stored sperm to make herself pregnant of future King David I.

But either way, it was never a question that a widow(er) was in line for the throne. So even if Caitrin Winton-Henke was removed from it as she married Edward Henke, she would have been reinstated after his death during Operation Hassan. And if Caitrin had had to abdicate her right in order to marry, that would usually apply to the offspring too, so Mike Henke wouldn't be in the line of succession in the first place.
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Re: Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change
Post by Theemile   » Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:29 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Indeed. The opposition was trying to get her to remarry because the wording in the Constitution wasn't very clear. It could have been interpreted as "if you marry, it must be a commoner" or as "you must marry a commoner." Moreover, there was a question of who the father of the heir could be: had that to be a commoner? In the end, she pushed through an amendment (after Earl Breakwater's fall from grace) that the rule was the former: if she married while Queen, it would need to be a commoner. She didn't remarry at all, plus she used her late husband's stored sperm to make herself pregnant of future King David I.

But either way, it was never a question that a widow(er) was in line for the throne. So even if Caitrin Winton-Henke was removed from it as she married Edward Henke, she would have been reinstated after his death during Operation Hassan. And if Caitrin had had to abdicate her right in order to marry, that would usually apply to the offspring too, so Mike Henke wouldn't be in the line of succession in the first place.


One item we have not explored (nor has been mentioned in text AFIK), is if one or more of the members of the line of succession has declared that they have no interest in the throne. Michael could be an admiral now and have no interest in anything but the Navy and has publicly said so. Likewise with Caitrin - the death of her husband and son may have pushed her into a charity or other pursuit, and overall soured her on international politics causing her to she proclaim something similar.

So while not "officially" doing something to lose the seat, they have declared that they will pass it up if offered, since there are sufficient other claimants in line, and their personage should never be required to do so, as happened before.

However, this has not been discussed in the story, and should have been if this is true.
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Re: Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change
Post by Puidwen   » Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:45 am

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I'm wondering now just how long certain heirs would be allowed to serve. I feel like, as a practical matter, at some point you have to worry more about the line of succession then anything else. You don't want a King Ralph situation. She's serve at least 40 years so she's learned the meaning of military service. I kinda suspect given all that she would be quietly urged to retired. For that matter if i recall right while it's preferred, it's not the only form of service the royals accept. I think the Foreign Office was mention in one of the books? As another practical matter if she's in the military she's not likely to be on Manticore, for let's call it Royal Training. Something i'm sure someone would insist on if she's really that close to the throne.
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Re: Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change
Post by Fox2!   » Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:09 am

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Puidwen wrote:I'm wondering now just how long certain heirs would be allowed to serve. I feel like, as a practical matter, at some point you have to worry more about the line of succession than anything else. You don't want a King Ralph situation. She's serve at least 40 years so she's learned the meaning of military service. I kinda suspect given all that she would be quietly urged to retired. For that matter if i recall right while it's preferred, it's not the only form of service the royals accept. I think the Foreign Office was mention in one of the books? As another practical matter if she's in the military she's not likely to be on Manticore, for let's call it Royal Training. Something i'm sure someone would insist on if she's really that close to the throne.


Michael, who was Beth's "spare", was out gallivanting around Masada for his snotty cruise. Being tasked to support the Foreign Ministry mission to Masada, in addition to his normal 30 hour a day snotty duties. IIRC, there was some consideration by the Foreign Office types of trying to convince the Faithful that Beth was just a figurehead, and that the power behind the throne was properly exercised by males, as exemplified by His Royal Highness, Prince Michael. Who had been sent on this trip just to reassure them that males were properly in control.

If she ever found out about that, the responsible members of the Striped Pants Brigade would wish that Beth's grudge was limited to the royal power to exile one person per year held by Her Mousety.
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Re: Michelle Henke's Succession Rank Change
Post by Puidwen   » Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:32 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
Michael, who was Beth's "spare", was out gallivanting around Masada for his snotty cruise. Being tasked to support the Foreign Ministry mission to Masada, in addition to his normal 30 hour a day snotty duties.



True, but i didn't say that the royal family wouldn't risk their heirs (they do it all the time). The key word in that sentance is snotty. If he serves another 40 years would he be allowed to keep serving? I'm speculating as practical matter, prehaps not.
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