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How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centuries"?

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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:31 pm

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Fox2! wrote:Non-compliant Part C fails in the most hideous, gruesome and public manner possible.


I believe this is a Murphy Law, isn't it? "When something can fail, it will fail in the most spectacular way possible in the most unexpected moment possible."
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Fox2!   » Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:12 am

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Theemile wrote:[
<Ahem> McNamara <Ahem>


Let's see ...
CVAN-66
CVAN-67

Actually, America and Kennedy were not built with nuclear power, because it "wasn't cost-efficient."

We actually did get three good aircraft out of the TFX program -
F-111 - wait, it wasn't actually a fighter, more of an attack/medium bomber. An F-111 crew did get credit for killing an Iraqi MiG during the First Gulf War. By outflying it into the ground.
FB-111, also not a fighter, an actual medium bomber
F-14, which was a fighter, but not part of the TFX program. After the Navy decided that there was no way the F-111B could be made into a carrier compatible fighter.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Theemile   » Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:20 am

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Fox2! wrote:
Theemile wrote:[
<Ahem> McNamara <Ahem>


Let's see ...
CVAN-66
CVAN-67

Actually, America and Kennedy were not built with nuclear power, because it "wasn't cost-efficient."

We actually did get three good aircraft out of the TFX program -
F-111 - wait, it wasn't actually a fighter, more of an attack/medium bomber. An F-111 crew did get credit for killing an Iraqi MiG during the First Gulf War. By outflying it into the ground.
FB-111, also not a fighter, an actual medium bomber
F-14, which was a fighter, but not part of the TFX program. After the Navy decided that there was no way the F-111B could be made into a carrier compatible fighter.


I have yet to have someone find me a McNamara government program or decision which wasn't "penny wise-pound foolish" and caused more problems long term than it solved.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:11 pm

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Theemile wrote:Another issue I've personally run into is what I call the over-smart new MBA.

Company A hires a new MBA and gives him a job of reviewing processes and quotes to save money. New MBA has no experience and a shiny degree, so looks through quotes and sees Item C costs too much, so he finds a different provider for Item C without knowing/discovering/passing along the exact specifications for item C to the new vendor, who happily sells their new client non-compliant item C. New MBA reports he saved a buck, then goes on to another project cocksure that he can herd cats where no one has ever been able to do.


I don't know if it was exactly this but the Trieste was almost lost this way twice.

The engineers specified some expensive silicon-filled fuses. Some beancounter substituted ordinary oil-filled ones. They were outside the pressure hull, the ordinary ones compressed and failed--and there goes their electrical system. Fortunately the abort worked.

Replaced with silicon-filled fuses, same failure. Turns out they weren't exactly what they were supposed to be although I haven't heard why on that.

Third dive, proper fuses, they made it to Challenger Deep.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:34 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
I don't know if it was exactly this but the Trieste was almost lost this way twice.

The engineers specified some expensive silicon-filled fuses. Some beancounter substituted ordinary oil-filled ones. They were outside the pressure hull, the ordinary ones compressed and failed--and there goes their electrical system. Fortunately the abort worked.

Replaced with silicon-filled fuses, same failure. Turns out they weren't exactly what they were supposed to be although I haven't heard why on that.

Third dive, proper fuses, they made it to Challenger Deep.


Fortunately, the "emergency ascent system" consisted of several tons of steel shot held in place by an electromagnet. Power fails, magnetic field collapses, shot falls out of Trieste, Trieste heads for the surface like a scalded cat. Can't get much simpler.

Was Trieste commissioned, or a USNS vessel? Or did she belong to someone else, and was operating under charter?
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:56 pm

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They can make-up 50% of the headway by just fighting a real war on the NavInt front. Arrogance makes you lose touch with reality. If you don't know your enemy or their capabilities, you can't fight them. Once you know your enemy's capabilities, then you negate them.

And saving the best for last, you go out and kick some ass. Announce your arrival. You don't start a fight, but you take no shit from anyone.

If the SL develops a game changer like the "Atom Bomb" you gotta drop it to announce there is a new sheriff in town.







I am just the messenger. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:24 pm

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cthia wrote:And saving the best for last, you go out and kick some ass. Announce your arrival. You don't start a fight, but you take no shit from anyone.

If the SL develops a game changer like the "Atom Bomb" you gotta drop it to announce there is a new sheriff in town.


That's exactly what the OP was asking: is the only solution to "not fighting a war in centuries" going out and fighting some? Like meddling in someone else's affairs? They could have just intervened in the Haven-Manticore war early on and would have made a difference. So long as they didn't try to conquer either Haven or Manticore, they'd have learnt useful lessons without letting out how far behind they were and getting humiliated.

But what if there is no convenient large-scale war out there? The Haven-Manticore war was very atypical that it involved large fleets and where both sides were multi-system polities with hundreds of SDs to their roster.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:10 am

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Back in the 70's, New Haven, CT shifted it trash disposal from landfill to a supposedly state of the art commercial mass incineration system for the City which was outfitted with all those required bells and whistles like scrubbers for the gasses and various things to burn off the Dioxens and other nasty products of the burning. A significant part of said burning system was the grating system to support the material being burned so had to withstand long durations of continuous burning (months?) at a time operations of high temperatures and a very wide range of corrosive effect of things that might be burning or harmful chemicals etc created in the incarnation process.

So, the grates DO perform satisfactorily though the design life listed for the gear but, of course, they have to change out these parts which were expected to be partially consumed over that design life because of the temperature, and the nasty stuff that was getting at them before the nasty gases would get "dealt with "safely with the scrubbings if not broken down in the fires Of course you have to shut down the plant while the replacements are carried out. . Somebody found a way to get a set of the replacement grates that were exactly the correct size and shape to be swapped in when the time came but were significantly less expensive.
They looked and fit perfectly but were not anywhere near the same composition etc of the original equipment and they not only had a significantly shorter operation lifespan, they caused a whole bunch of problems because -------perhaps the people who should have been monitoring operations failed to realize the new equipment was burning away at a much higher rate that it was supposed to and then had a big surprise when "oops"- parts started failing while the plant was operating. Can't remember ever hearing who might have suffered actual consequences of those decisions-- your incineration plant catching fire is a bad sign--- but there was much screaming in the news papers and then a big problem with what to do with the mountains of trash that were accumulating while they attempted to fix the problem.
Sigh.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by kzt   » Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:16 pm

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Well, typically the genius who came up with the plan has been promoted for his cost savings before disaster strikes....
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Theemile   » Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:39 pm

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kzt wrote:Well, typically the genius who came up with the plan has been promoted for his cost savings before disaster strikes....


Surprisingly, none of us has mentioned the Flint water crisis, where public administrators ignored specialist's recommendations and decided to save money by not including certain chemicals into the water supply which were required to protect the lining of century old water mains. Mains, which would later leach toxic levels of lead into the water system because their protective coatings had dissolved, and poisoned the water system for a city of 150,000 inhabitants.

Remember the old joke folks - "No matter how many years pass, we will never get the lead out of Plumbing." Only now, this appears to be a grim double entande.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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