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How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centuries"?

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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by tlb   » Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:35 am

tlb
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tlb wrote:Fleet Admiral Rajampet is not in the chain of command of Frontier Fleet nor probably of the Marines. Unlike Battle Fleet, both the Marines and Frontier Fleet were regularly used and put into situations where they had to excel. Undoubtedly there was corruption in both; but for FF and the Marines it would have come from cozy relationships with interstellar corporations, rather than measures that compromised their ability to apply force. The corporations are going to reward results, not empty pay slots.

Theemile wrote:Actually Rampajet was head of the Armed Forces, the heads of BF, FF and Marines reported to him. Kingsford was head of FF and reported to Rampajet prior to Rampajet's pistol sucking episode.

How does that work when Frontier Fleet reports to a different secretary? Rampajet may have nominal control, but functionally FF was independent. From Pearls of Weber (under FAQs at top of screen):
Artificial Divisions within the SLN wrote:Officers who opt to serve in Frontier Fleet are essentially barred from Battle Fleet service because the SLN has come to regard the former as a police force/border patrol/customs force and the other as a "battle-fighting" force. (Hey, I didn't say that the division rested on a realistic view of the Universe!) In addition to the division between the "Oh, they're just glorified cops!" disdain Battle Fleet feels for Frontier Fleet (which, by the way, despises Battle Fleet's fat-and-happy arrogance), careerism, padding accounts, outright payoffs from the bureaucrats running the system, illegal disposal of public property for private gain, etc., these are rampant within the SLN. And they are also far more rampant in Battle Fleet than in Frontier Fleet.

Why? Because as Richard has been arguing, Frontier Fleet does useful, essential work every single day and Battle Fleet… does not. As someone pointed out, the Battle of Farley's Crossing is referenced in IEH as the last major battle of the SLN. It happend approximately two centuries ago (a little less) and the simulation being used wasn't an SLN sim; it was a Peep sim, because the Peeps were studying the battle as a training tool and the SLN wasn't. In addition, there were 600 ships present, but less than a dozen ships of the wall. It was essentially a Frontier Fleet action, with about 160 SLN ships standing off and trashing around 3 times their number of smaller units (including some from a "rogue" system defense fleet contingent; the aforesaid Farley's Crossing System). They trashed the opposition because of superior technology, which masked the fact that their tactics sucked wind, and Battle Fleet's opinion of the battle is that if those Frontier Fleet yahoos can handle the neobarbs that handily, it just proves that no one would stand a chance against us! In other words, the SLN, institutionally, managed to learn virtually nothing from the battle.

Reference has been made to the SLN observers at the front and the fact that they have been ignored. One reason they have been is because virtually all of them were Frontier Fleet officers, and the institutional arrogance of the Battle Fleet officer corps means that anything they say is discounted.

-- snip --

(6) A lot of the money which the SLN does receive goes into the pockets of corrupt admirals, corrupt civilian suppliers, etc.. What actually gets made available to pay for the needs of the navy has to be prioritized somehow, and, again, Richard has a point when he suggests that the side of the Navy which is actually doing something (Frontier Fleet) has got to be paid for somehow. Virtually all new construction funds go to Frontier Fleet. Frontier Fleet's training budget is several times as high as that of Battle Fleet's. Frontier Fleet gets upgrades in electronics on a regular basis; Battle Fleet doesn't. Battle Fleet is regarded by almost every star nation (including the Solarian League and the SLN itself) as the premier battle force of the galaxy, despite the fact that it hasn't fought a battle in centuries, so it obviously doesn't need all that training and new equipment.

(7) Frontier Fleet trains regularly in the operations which it has to carry out on a daily basis. Battle Fleet trains using established simulation scenarios which all fall neatly within the framework of its existing doctrine. As a result, Frontier Fleet's simulations tend to uncover potential problems and weaknesses, while Battle Fleet's training simply reinforces its perception that it has the bases covered.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Theemile   » Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:32 pm

Theemile
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tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:Actually Rampajet was head of the Armed Forces, the heads of BF, FF and Marines reported to him. Kingsford was head of FF and reported to Rampajet prior to Rampajet's pistol sucking episode.

How does that work when Frontier Fleet reports to a different secretary? Rampajet may have nominal control, but functionally FF was independent. From Pearls of Weber (under FAQs at top of screen):
Artificial Divisions within the SLN wrote:Officers who opt to serve in Frontier Fleet are essentially barred from Battle Fleet service because the SLN has come to regard the former as a police force/border patrol/customs force and the other as a "battle-fighting" force. (Hey, I didn't say that the division rested on a realistic view of the Universe!) In addition to the division between the "Oh, they're just glorified cops!" disdain Battle Fleet feels for Frontier Fleet (which, by the way, despises Battle Fleet's fat-and-happy arrogance), careerism, padding accounts, outright payoffs from the bureaucrats running the system, illegal disposal of public property for private gain, etc., these are rampant within the SLN. And they are also far more rampant in Battle Fleet than in Frontier Fleet.

Why? Because as Richard has been arguing, Frontier Fleet does useful, essential work every single day and Battle Fleet… does not. As someone pointed out, the Battle of Farley's Crossing is referenced in IEH as the last major battle of the SLN. It happend approximately two centuries ago (a little less) and the simulation being used wasn't an SLN sim; it was a Peep sim, because the Peeps were studying the battle as a training tool and the SLN wasn't. In addition, there were 600 ships present, but less than a dozen ships of the wall. It was essentially a Frontier Fleet action, with about 160 SLN ships standing off and trashing around 3 times their number of smaller units (including some from a "rogue" system defense fleet contingent; the aforesaid Farley's Crossing System). They trashed the opposition because of superior technology, which masked the fact that their tactics sucked wind, and Battle Fleet's opinion of the battle is that if those Frontier Fleet yahoos can handle the neobarbs that handily, it just proves that no one would stand a chance against us! In other words, the SLN, institutionally, managed to learn virtually nothing from the battle.

Reference has been made to the SLN observers at the front and the fact that they have been ignored. One reason they have been is because virtually all of them were Frontier Fleet officers, and the institutional arrogance of the Battle Fleet officer corps means that anything they say is discounted.

-- snip --

(6) A lot of the money which the SLN does receive goes into the pockets of corrupt admirals, corrupt civilian suppliers, etc.. What actually gets made available to pay for the needs of the navy has to be prioritized somehow, and, again, Richard has a point when he suggests that the side of the Navy which is actually doing something (Frontier Fleet) has got to be paid for somehow. Virtually all new construction funds go to Frontier Fleet. Frontier Fleet's training budget is several times as high as that of Battle Fleet's. Frontier Fleet gets upgrades in electronics on a regular basis; Battle Fleet doesn't. Battle Fleet is regarded by almost every star nation (including the Solarian League and the SLN itself) as the premier battle force of the galaxy, despite the fact that it hasn't fought a battle in centuries, so it obviously doesn't need all that training and new equipment.

(7) Frontier Fleet trains regularly in the operations which it has to carry out on a daily basis. Battle Fleet trains using established simulation scenarios which all fall neatly within the framework of its existing doctrine. As a result, Frontier Fleet's simulations tend to uncover potential problems and weaknesses, while Battle Fleet's training simply reinforces its perception that it has the bases covered.


OFS (The Office of Frontier Security) who governs and polices the Verge reports to another Secretary. Frontier Fleet, does not report to OFS, but is seconded to them on a sector level for policing and security purposes.

So FF Reports to SLN, but works for OFS on a daily basis and should not be confused or considered as one entity.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by tlb   » Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:57 pm

tlb
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Theemile wrote:OFS (The Office of Frontier Security) who governs and polices the Verge reports to another Secretary. Frontier Fleet, does not report to OFS, but is seconded to them on a sector level for policing and security purposes.

So FF Reports to SLN, but works for OFS on a daily basis and should not be confused or considered as one entity.

Do not get too caught up in the original table of organization that was created centuries ago. Although FF has only been seconded to the Interior Department, that has been true for more than a century and its undersecretary will stand to its defense (since FF is essential to the operations of OFS). Note what it says in chapter 48 of Storm from the Shadows:
Fleet Admiral Rajampet Kaushal Rajani was the Solarian League Navy's chief of naval operations. In theory, that made him merely the uniformed commander of both Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet, as Minister of Defense Taketomo Kunimichi's deputy. In fact, however, Taketomo's real command authority was sharply circumscribed (despite the fact that he himself was a retired admiral), and since Battle Fleet was the senior of the SLN's two branches, Rajampet was the de facto Defense Minister.

On the other hand, even Rajampet's actual, direct authority over Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet was, itself, largely illusory. In no small part, that was because his time was too occupied with the day-to-day affairs of keeping the entire Ministry of Defense running to act as any sort of genuine commander in chief. In addition, however, there was the minor fact that over the centuries Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet had each become its own separate empire, currently ruled over by Kingsford and Fleet Admiral Engracia Alonso y Yáñez, the CO of Frontier Fleet, respectively. Both of them were much too jealous of their own prerogatives to surrender any of them—or any true authority—to Rajampet. Especially not if giving up any of those prerogatives might reduce their own commands' slices of the funding pie.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Theemile   » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:13 am

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tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:OFS (The Office of Frontier Security) who governs and polices the Verge reports to another Secretary. Frontier Fleet, does not report to OFS, but is seconded to them on a sector level for policing and security purposes.

So FF Reports to SLN, but works for OFS on a daily basis and should not be confused or considered as one entity.

Do not get too caught up in the original table of organization that was created centuries ago. Although FF has only been seconded to the Interior Department, that has been true for more than a century and its undersecretary will stand to its defense (since FF is essential to the operations of OFS). Note what it says in chapter 48 of Storm from the Shadows:
Fleet Admiral Rajampet Kaushal Rajani was the Solarian League Navy's chief of naval operations. In theory, that made him merely the uniformed commander of both Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet, as Minister of Defense Taketomo Kunimichi's deputy. In fact, however, Taketomo's real command authority was sharply circumscribed (despite the fact that he himself was a retired admiral), and since Battle Fleet was the senior of the SLN's two branches, Rajampet was the de facto Defense Minister.

On the other hand, even Rajampet's actual, direct authority over Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet was, itself, largely illusory. In no small part, that was because his time was too occupied with the day-to-day affairs of keeping the entire Ministry of Defense running to act as any sort of genuine commander in chief. In addition, however, there was the minor fact that over the centuries Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet had each become its own separate empire, currently ruled over by Kingsford and Fleet Admiral Engracia Alonso y Yáñez, the CO of Frontier Fleet, respectively. Both of them were much too jealous of their own prerogatives to surrender any of them—or any true authority—to Rajampet. Especially not if giving up any of those prerogatives might reduce their own commands' slices of the funding pie.


But your quote backs up what I was saying; though separate entities, FF ultimately reported to Rampajet, not another secretary. Rampajet just didn't have any direct responsibilities for Frontier Fleet, his deputy, Yáñez did. In the same vein, Rampajet did not have direct day to day responsibility over BF, Kingsford held that slot. (I'll admit, I got the 2 confused, I thought Kingsford held FF, not BF)
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by tlb   » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:39 am

tlb
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Theemile wrote:But your quote backs up what I was saying; though separate entities, FF ultimately reported to Rampajet, not another secretary. Rampajet just didn't have any direct responsibilities for Frontier Fleet, his deputy, Yáñez did. In the same vein, Rampajet did not have direct day to day responsibility over BF, Kingsford held that slot. (I'll admit, I got the 2 confused, I thought Kingsford held FF, not BF)

Yes, the table of organization says that the CO of Frontier Fleet MIGHT report to Rajampet; but Rajampet is a product of Battle Fleet and might not have anything to do with FF (except at budget time). FF has been seconded to Interior for centuries and that is going to be a MUCH stronger de facto tie than one between entities that loathed each other.

The de jure tie only means that Rajampet might at times be able to force an officer (like Byng) to command some FF ships; although only extraordinary circumstances would cause a BF officer to accept such a post.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by kzt   » Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:40 pm

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Another thing about pervasive corruption. Is the pervasive lying. The Russians call this Vranyo". Everyone knows that everyone else is lying to them.

So unit commanders lie about readiness. You say ‘but I’ll not do that!’ Well cool, say goodby to your career because your platoon is the worst platoon in the entire Brigade. You have the least competent soldiers, the least complement of equipment and the lowest vehicle readiness is the entire division. Unlike all the other platoons you only have one mission capable vehicle.

So are you going to tell the truth and get crucified or are you going to do what everyone else does and make things look better than they are?

And this doesn’t stop at junior officers. You battalion didn’t get the ammo to carry out that exercise that the General wanted? Well, are you going to tell him you failed or are tou going to write up a successful exercise? All four of your peers reported a successful exercise and only two of you are going to get promoted.

To some extent this can be compensated for, because the general knows what is going on. So in combat he knows that the situation isn’t as good as he’s been told, but what is really going on is in question. Does that successful battalion attack mean a successful company attack, or does mean that the lead company has been pinned down in a minefield for tywo hours?

So fixing this is a nightmare. You have to change the culture. Like we did in Afghanistan. Oh, wait…
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:34 pm

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kzt wrote:B2) Most of the time it's impossible to tell whether a given part is made by that vendor or if it just looks like that part.

B3) So if you replace six $25 bolts used to hold the vertical stabilizer on your attack shuttles with $2.75 bolts made by Joe's knockoffs times ten thousand you can make a lot of money.

B4) While Joe's bolts might have certain mechanical dispensaries between the specs and what he provides, they probably are close enough, and how often will the difference between 50,000 PSI and 130,000 PSI really matter?


Minor disagreement--the Joe's bolts are probably just as strong as the originals. What's missing is the quality control to ensure they're all up to spec.

D: Reserve ships
D1) You have a lot of ships in the reserve that nobody ever looks at.

D2) What if we were to sell off those parts that are not obvious to spare part dealers, for people looking for parts for antique starships.

D3) So you pull out the electronics, the hatches, and all sorts of parts that nobody will miss. So while you have 3000 ships in reserve, about 2400 of them need a lot of critical parts replaced. Parts that nobody actually makes any more.

D4) Profit!


What seems to have happened to Russia.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by kzt   » Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:42 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
kzt wrote:B2) Most of the time it's impossible to tell whether a given part is made by that vendor or if it just looks like that part.

B3) So if you replace six $25 bolts used to hold the vertical stabilizer on your attack shuttles with $2.75 bolts made by Joe's knockoffs times ten thousand you can make a lot of money.

B4) While Joe's bolts might have certain mechanical dispensaries between the specs and what he provides, they probably are close enough, and how often will the difference between 50,000 PSI and 130,000 PSI really matter?


Minor disagreement--the Joe's bolts are probably just as strong as the originals. What's missing is the quality control to ensure they're all up to spec.


No, the example I stole was from the EAA talking about why you shouldn't build your experimental aircraft with hardware store parts. And an example of what counterfit parts can do.

"Common steel bolts purchased from a hardware store are made of low carbon steel that has a low tensile strength usually in the neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000 psi. They also bend easily and have little corrosion protection. In contrast, aircraft bolts are made from corrosion resistant steel and are heat treated to a strength in excess of 125,000 psi. The same comparison applies to most hardware items."

Counterfit parts: Partnair Flight 394, where the tail fell off in flight. "After investigators recovered all four bolts, sleeves, and pins, they found that the bolt and parts installed by the Canadian firm were properly approved equipment, but the other three bolts and their parts were counterfeit and were incorrectly heat-treated during manufacture. Those bolts each could bear only about 60% of their intended breaking strength, making them less than practical to use on the aircraft. The fake bolts and sleeves wore down excessively, causing the tail to vibrate for 16 completed flights and the accident flight."

D: Reserve ships
D1) You have a lot of ships in the reserve that nobody ever looks at.

D2) What if we were to sell off those parts that are not obvious to spare part dealers, for people looking for parts for antique starships.

D3) So you pull out the electronics, the hatches, and all sorts of parts that nobody will miss. So while you have 3000 ships in reserve, about 2400 of them need a lot of critical parts replaced. Parts that nobody actually makes any more.

D4) Profit!


What seems to have happened to Russia.[/quote]
Yup. Rumor is that the wiring harnesses were stolen for the copper by junior staff and apparently there was a trade in tank parts overseas by the mid/senior staff.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Theemile   » Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:24 am

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
Minor disagreement--the Joe's bolts are probably just as strong as the originals. What's missing is the quality control to ensure they're all up to spec.


No, the example I stole was from the EAA talking about why you shouldn't build your experimental aircraft with hardware store parts. And an example of what counterfit parts can do.

"Common steel bolts purchased from a hardware store are made of low carbon steel that has a low tensile strength usually in the neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000 psi. They also bend easily and have little corrosion protection. In contrast, aircraft bolts are made from corrosion resistant steel and are heat treated to a strength in excess of 125,000 psi. The same comparison applies to most hardware items."

Counterfit parts: Partnair Flight 394, where the tail fell off in flight. "After investigators recovered all four bolts, sleeves, and pins, they found that the bolt and parts installed by the Canadian firm were properly approved equipment, but the other three bolts and their parts were counterfeit and were incorrectly heat-treated during manufacture. Those bolts each could bear only about 60% of their intended breaking strength, making them less than practical to use on the aircraft. The fake bolts and sleeves wore down excessively, causing the tail to vibrate for 16 completed flights and the accident flight."


Strangely, the Bolt strength argument (and plane crash investigation story) has come up a couple times on the Bar. The first time I heard it, one of the posters didn't realize bolts came in different strengths, and had to be pointed to a markings chart to prove that bolts were strength marked.

For anyone interested...
https://www.aftfasteners.com/grades-of-bolts-bolt-grade-markings-bolt-strength-chart/
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:41 pm

Loren Pechtel
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Posts: 1307
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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Minor disagreement--the Joe's bolts are probably just as strong as the originals. What's missing is the quality control to ensure they're all up to spec.


No, the example I stole was from the EAA talking about why you shouldn't build your experimental aircraft with hardware store parts. And an example of what counterfit parts can do.

"Common steel bolts purchased from a hardware store are made of low carbon steel that has a low tensile strength usually in the neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000 psi. They also bend easily and have little corrosion protection. In contrast, aircraft bolts are made from corrosion resistant steel and are heat treated to a strength in excess of 125,000 psi. The same comparison applies to most hardware items."

Counterfit parts: Partnair Flight 394, where the tail fell off in flight. "After investigators recovered all four bolts, sleeves, and pins, they found that the bolt and parts installed by the Canadian firm were properly approved equipment, but the other three bolts and their parts were counterfeit and were incorrectly heat-treated during manufacture. Those bolts each could bear only about 60% of their intended breaking strength, making them less than practical to use on the aircraft. The fake bolts and sleeves wore down excessively, causing the tail to vibrate for 16 completed flights and the accident flight."


You're making my point--the fakes weren't hardware store items, they were poorly-made copies of the real thing. What you're really paying for with the proper stuff is quality control. Joe's Bolts don't have the quality control and once in a while your plane comes apart because of that.
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