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How does Honor know so much?

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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:37 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:There is only so much IQ that can be mined before side effects negate it all. I think the MA milked that cow dry.

I never said the other accoutrements were not important to be labeled as a "modern" Alpha. I am only saying that for the sake of our discussion about Honor, all is equal. All of the added options of the MA's Alphas won't ever come into play on the battlefield. On the battlefield it will come down to strategy and tactics. And not whether one can withstand insane elements, or if one has staying power in bed.


As tlb said above, we don't know for sure that all that could be done has been done. Given the state of Beowulf's prohibition on the experimentation, I'm pretty sure Beowulf wouldn't know for sure. They'd know that there could be side-effects, but not what workarounds for those side-effects might be.

Plus, the MAlign might be more accepting of side-effects. Intelligence makes a person a sociopath? That's a feature, not a bug!

Either way, the point remains: the MAlign has continued to do genetic experimentation for 5 centuries since the loss of contact with the Harringtons. That implies they've done something. Lots of somethings. Even if they were all "nice to have" improvements, they've accumulated. Like in the analogy of cars, we it would be like saying that the engine was perfected 70 years ago, but now we have nicer entertainment systems, air conditioning, remote telemetry, tire pressure sensors, power windows, etc. And no, neither engines nor aerodynamics were perfected 70 years ago.

The MAlign decides what an Alpha is. We don't know that they wouldn't call Honor Alpha, but we don't know that they would either. In my opinion, the most likely would point to not being so, because she has 10-13 generations of non-eugenetic ancestry and none of the splicing since.

Sociopathy makes people a sociopath. Too much intellect makes people stupid. It is a lack of common sense. A lack of common sense seems to be the MA side effect. Something has to suffer. It is the human element all over again. Man has a distinct limitation. We will never be God.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by tlb   » Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:21 am

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cthia wrote:Sociopathy makes people a sociopath. Too much intellect makes people stupid. It is a lack of common sense. A lack of common sense seems to be the MA side effect. Something has to suffer. It is the human element all over again. Man has a distinct limitation. We will never be God.

Even if intelligence were increased by several orders of magnitude, man would still not be God; so I do not think that sets a barrier to human improvement.

Does common sense decrease with increased intelligence? Or are they independent variables? Perhaps the author will provide an answer, perhaps not.

The LRPB does have some filters against malignant social behavior, because the members of the Malign do have to work together; but they might allow for more deviation than we might find comfortable.
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by Theemile   » Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:31 am

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cthia wrote:
Theemile wrote:
I had a Magnum SRT back in the mid 2000's that I put into a concrete highway divider when the rear end slid out from under me while merging into rush hour highway traffic - a slick patch of tar, a few weeks of surface oil buildup and that first September rain turned my overpowered rear end into a plaything of physics. Add in the other idiots reactions on the road and I had no choice but put it into the concrete - it was that or into that Grand Cherokee who saw me losing control in his rear view mirror, and slammed on his brakes.

Now don't call me unprepared - previously, I had bought a Porsche 944 with the top end handling package back when I graduated college. I had had a handful of upgraded light sports cars previously, but was simply unprepared for a machine like that. Smartly, I took some track classes. When I say I have done virtually every stupid car trick in that car (other than jumps, you just can't do that stuff in a car with 2.5" ground clearance), I'm not kidding - it hugged the road like an over possessive mother. You don't feel the road - you are the road. The family friend I had purchased it from told me that it wasn't the fastest car out there, but it will get from point A to B faster than anyone else - because you just don't need to slow down. Hell, I even made a cop buddy wet his pants after he asked me to show him what the car could do...

Well, the Magnum wasn't that. It sat on an upgraded S-Class suspension with a limited slip differential in the rear, and the 6.1L engine could make it moooove (Ironically it was only about as fast as the 944 with the DME tripped into race mode). It was a bruiser, pure muscle, no finesse.

So Yeah - those overpowered monsters can kill you - experienced and trained or not.

Good reading. I enjoyed it. Glad you are alive to tell the story. I am sorry the 944 didn't make it. I loved that car. I coveted that car in college myself. I wanted one badly. But not as badly as I wanted to keep my 924. It wasn't the turbo model. I like normally aspirated engines. It was a very sexy car. I enjoyed it as much when it was parked as when I was driving it. LOL

But I am all about road feel. And the Porsches and BMW's deliver. "You are the road." I like it.

I enjoy driving when driving let's me enjoy it. I like to see the world and enjoy traveling. I want to enjoy the highway. I don't mind going through small towns and back roads in a Porsche or BMW. I even prefer it. I want something that hugs the road. I like to bond with my car.

About that Hellcat. Thing is, you can kick out the rear end with the black key. The black key is simply the lesser of two evils.

My brother let my sister drive his Hellcat. He has always been a speed demon since his '72 'Cuda. She said to him, "The damn thing is still dangerous with the black key!"

And then she said to him, "Why would you want a car so dangerous that you've got to hide the key? So your kid will find your car keys and your gun too? And what if someone in the equation is color blind? And why would a human want a car with two keys when we can't keep up with one?"

"It is an all around car."

"All around the nearest tree?"


Decades ago my Aunt visited Italy. She loved it so much she stayed for a few years. She wanted to see the running of the bulls. When she returned she commented. "Why do Italians turn their cars into uncontrollable bulls? Of all people they should know that sooner or later you are going to get bucked."

I never made that connection until now. Horses are turned into bucking broncos.

P.S. kzt, BMW offers a driver's course. It is exhilarating. They will also put you in a mock-up frame of your model car and tailor it to your specifications in certain areas. Like knee bolster. It feels like getting fitted for a suit. Nice touch. You can even watch your car coming off the assembly line.

For the M-series cars that is. I had the M5.

Oh, Jonathan! I hear that some drivers prefer disabling ABS when "drifting." I don't know, I have never drifted before. Unless it was an accident. LOL

Drifting is a new fad which originated in Japan. Basically you use your emergency brake to slide around a turn.

Late edit: My badd. It was the Magnum that hit the concrete divide. Let's save the Porsches.


.


Sheila, the Magnum, came back from that accident - I had a ~28 degree roll when I when I slid sideways into the concrete, and I had recovered the yaw enough that it was only ~7 degrees, so my side collision was almost parallel. (I had enough roll, my side mirror didn't even touch the Jersey Rail.) Virtually the entire force was absorbed by the wheels and the rest went into the car's underbody rail. Very minor body work - some paint and rust inhibitor, 2 new rims & tires, 2 wheel bearings, and she was back on the road - almost insignificant for an accident with concrete at 60 mph. I got to enjoy her for another 5 years.

Faust, the 944, took a near-lightening strike some years back, and even though I poured thousands into replacing the faults in the electrical system, I never found all the faults. I finally got down to the collimator coil in the Alternator.... and kinda gave up. He became a garage queen for a few years, and I finally sold him off in 2020 when we had to move for my new position. It was sad, but he hadn't been a reliable driver in well over a decade.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:56 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

cthia wrote:
Theemile wrote:
I had a Magnum SRT back in the mid 2000's that I put into a concrete highway divider when the rear end slid out from under me while merging into rush hour highway traffic - a slick patch of tar, a few weeks of surface oil buildup and that first September rain turned my overpowered rear end into a plaything of physics. Add in the other idiots reactions on the road and I had no choice but put it into the concrete - it was that or into that Grand Cherokee who saw me losing control in his rear view mirror, and slammed on his brakes.

Now don't call me unprepared - previously, I had bought a Porsche 944 with the top end handling package back when I graduated college. I had had a handful of upgraded light sports cars previously, but was simply unprepared for a machine like that. Smartly, I took some track classes. When I say I have done virtually every stupid car trick in that car (other than jumps, you just can't do that stuff in a car with 2.5" ground clearance), I'm not kidding - it hugged the road like an over possessive mother. You don't feel the road - you are the road. The family friend I had purchased it from told me that it wasn't the fastest car out there, but it will get from point A to B faster than anyone else - because you just don't need to slow down. Hell, I even made a cop buddy wet his pants after he asked me to show him what the car could do...

Well, the Magnum wasn't that. It sat on an upgraded S-Class suspension with a limited slip differential in the rear, and the 6.1L engine could make it moooove (Ironically it was only about as fast as the 944 with the DME tripped into race mode). It was a bruiser, pure muscle, no finesse.

So Yeah - those overpowered monsters can kill you - experienced and trained or not.

Good reading. I enjoyed it. Glad you are alive to tell the story. I am sorry the 944 didn't make it. I loved that car. I coveted that car in college myself. I wanted one badly. But not as badly as I wanted to keep my 924. It wasn't the turbo model. I like normally aspirated engines. It was a very sexy car. I enjoyed it as much when it was parked as when I was driving it. LOL

But I am all about road feel. And the Porsches and BMW's deliver. "You are the road." I like it.

I enjoy driving when driving let's me enjoy it. I like to see the world and enjoy traveling. I want to enjoy the highway. I don't mind going through small towns and back roads in a Porsche or BMW. I even prefer it. I want something that hugs the road. I like to bond with my car.

About that Hellcat. Thing is, you can kick out the rear end with the black key. The black key is simply the lesser of two evils.

My brother let my sister drive his Hellcat. He has always been a speed demon since his '72 'Cuda. She said to him, "The damn thing is still dangerous with the black key!"

And then she said to him, "Why would you want a car so dangerous that you've got to hide the key? So your kid will find your car keys and your gun too? And what if someone in the equation is color blind? And why would a human want a car with two keys when we can't keep up with one?"

"It is an all around car."

"All around the nearest tree?"


Decades ago my Aunt visited Italy. She loved it so much she stayed for a few years. She wanted to see the running of the bulls. When she returned she commented. "Why do Italians turn their cars into uncontrollable bulls? Of all people they should know that sooner or later you are going to get bucked."

I never made that connection until now. Horses are turned into bucking broncos.

P.S. kzt, BMW offers a driver's course. It is exhilarating. They will also put you in a mock-up frame of your model car and tailor it to your specifications in certain areas. Like knee bolster. It feels like getting fitted for a suit. Nice touch. You can even watch your car coming off the assembly line.

For the M-series cars that is. I had the M5.

Oh, Jonathan! I hear that some drivers prefer disabling ABS when "drifting." I don't know, I have never drifted before. Unless it was an accident. LOL

Drifting is a new fad which originated in Japan. Basically you use your emergency brake to slide around a turn.

Late edit: My badd. It was the Magnum that hit the concrete divide. Let's save the Porsches.


.

Theemile wrote:Sheila, the Magnum, came back from that accident - I had a ~28 degree roll when I when I slid sideways into the concrete, and I had recovered the yaw enough that it was only ~7 degrees, so my side collision was almost parallel. (I had enough roll, my side mirror didn't even touch the Jersey Rail.) Virtually the entire force was absorbed by the wheels and the rest went into the car's underbody rail. Very minor body work - some paint and rust inhibitor, 2 new rims & tires, 2 wheel bearings, and she was back on the road - almost insignificant for an accident with concrete at 60 mph. I got to enjoy her for another 5 years.

Faust, the 944, took a near-lightening strike some years back, and even though I poured thousands into replacing the faults in the electrical system, I never found all the faults. I finally got down to the collimator coil in the Alternator.... and kinda gave up. He became a garage queen for a few years, and I finally sold him off in 2020 when we had to move for my new position. It was sad, but he hadn't been a reliable driver in well over a decade.

Mea culpa, just spoke to my brother. It was a '70 Cuda he terrorized the neighborhood with. He said the '72 'Cuda didn't have his 383, it had a 340. Is this thread of a thread beginning to sound like My Cousin Vinny?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:26 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:There is only so much IQ that can be mined before side effects negate it all. I think the MA milked that cow dry.

I never said the other accoutrements were not important to be labeled as a "modern" Alpha. I am only saying that for the sake of our discussion about Honor, all is equal. All of the added options of the MA's Alphas won't ever come into play on the battlefield. On the battlefield it will come down to strategy and tactics. And not whether one can withstand insane elements, or if one has staying power in bed.


As tlb said above, we don't know for sure that all that could be done has been done. Given the state of Beowulf's prohibition on the experimentation, I'm pretty sure Beowulf wouldn't know for sure. They'd know that there could be side-effects, but not what workarounds for those side-effects might be.

Plus, the MAlign might be more accepting of side-effects. Intelligence makes a person a sociopath? That's a feature, not a bug!

Either way, the point remains: the MAlign has continued to do genetic experimentation for 5 centuries since the loss of contact with the Harringtons. That implies they've done something. Lots of somethings. Even if they were all "nice to have" improvements, they've accumulated. Like in the analogy of cars, we it would be like saying that the engine was perfected 70 years ago, but now we have nicer entertainment systems, air conditioning, remote telemetry, tire pressure sensors, power windows, etc. And no, neither engines nor aerodynamics were perfected 70 years ago.

The MAlign decides what an Alpha is. We don't know that they wouldn't call Honor Alpha, but we don't know that they would either. In my opinion, the most likely would point to not being so, because she has 10-13 generations of non-eugenetic ancestry and none of the splicing since.

Sociopathy is a feature and not a bug? LOL

What's frightening is the sociopathic MA probably does feel that way. Sociopaths have delusions of grandeur. A screw somewhere is loose or missing.

What frightens me about the MA is that the text about Galton indicated there was a split trom the original MA. That means even the current MA can split even more, which could suggest an even more antagonistic MA.

And some posters still question whether the sociopathic MA will actually accept carrying out Eridani violations.

It is also a good thing that paranoia runs rampant within MA ranks, so that textev may somewhat spare us from a peek inside the inner minds of the Inner Onion. Do you really want to hear what sociopathy sound like? "Turn on the monitor in Apt. 2B."

Most of the MA are very guarded about what comes out of their mouth. All of them? Ok, I agree.

Anyway, rogue elements frighten me. The result of too much IQ and not enough common sense is the God complex.

When Honor was made, they should have broke the mold.

Why do I see medical scales in the MA's labs when I think about their genetic research. Just a little more IQ (nudging the little weight to the right with the finger). Nope, too much IQ, common sense suffers. Nudge the little weight back a little to the left until the scale balances out. Nudge, nudge. There! :roll:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:49 pm

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cthia wrote:What frightens me about the MA is that the text about Galton indicated there was a split trom the original MA. That means even the current MA can split even more, which could suggest an even more antagonistic MA.


Galton wasn't a split as much as a cut-out. Though a split is the cover story that was fed to Audrey O'Hanrahan to explain what the GF would find when they arrived in Galton. But that's what it was: a cover story. In reality, both systems were still controlled by the same Onion.

However, there was a split on Mesa because the MAlign kept most of the members that thought they were part of something called "the Alignment" in the dark about said alignment's true purposes. Those were completely in the dark about the Alignment's military and industrial capacity, or that it secretly controlled their arch-enemy, Manpower Inc.

One might wonder how much the population of Galton is told about the true objectives and how much of the Darius is. My guess is "not much" to either. In Galton, the population veered much more overtly militaristic, and imposing their vision through force. Meanwhile, the general population in Darius probably has no clue how the vision will be imposed/implemented in the first place.

And some posters still question whether the sociopathic MA will actually accept carrying out Eridani violations.


How can anyone question that which has been established they would do, when they feel the ends justify it?

Anyway, rogue elements frighten me. The result of too much IQ and not enough common sense is the God complex.


Good point. We haven't seen dissidence from the Inner Onion yet, the likes of Detweiler, Bardasano, Anisimovna, the people who were running Galton. The closest we've seen is the Inner Outer Onion, the McBryde level. But one would expect this to happen, as all of those really intelligent people with a superiority complex would be apt to decide their way is the best way, not the current ruler's.

When Honor was made, they should have broke the mold.


Considering that there was no mold in the first place (no specific genetic sequencing), that's effectively what's happened. Otherwise, they'd have corrected for the inability to regenerate.

Why do I see medical scales in the MA's labs when I think about their genetic research. Just a little more IQ (nudging the little weight to the right with the finger). Nope, too much IQ, common sense suffers. Nudge the little weight back a little to the left until the scale balances out. Nudge, nudge. There! :roll:


Fair enough, but let me raise you: common sense is not that common. More to the point, it can shift with time.
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:34 pm

Brigade XO
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Posts: 3114
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Location: KY

[quote="kzt"
[The guy who sold me my Ram pickup mentioned that a large proportion of the people who he'd sold the Dodge performance cars to had wrecked them in a year or two. They have enough HP that you can blast loose the rear wheels and then it's up to physics where your car goes.

I think the high end cars came with a free course on how to handle them.[/quote]

A long time back I had the opportunity to drive a '68 Shelby Cobra, GT500KR with the 128 Cobra Jet Engine. The spoiler was part of the molded body and the trunk lid was molded in the same curve up. Doing 130+ down an interstate with 1/4 tank of gas, the car started to "float" and loose traction. I was going straight and clearly the solution was take my foot off the accelerator. It settled back down.... not enough weight + not enough aerodynamic help from the integral spoiler to hold the reared on the road. Most things have limits and variable. I discovered that particular set without without any harm to anything.
When last seen, that car was being sold after almost 40 years with the same owner. Beautiful vehicle.
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by cthia   » Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:27 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:What frightens me about the MA is that the text about Galton indicated there was a split trom the original MA. That means even the current MA can split even more, which could suggest an even more antagonistic MA.


Galton wasn't a split as much as a cut-out. Though a split is the cover story that was fed to Audrey O'Hanrahan to explain what the GF would find when they arrived in Galton. But that's what it was: a cover story. In reality, both systems were still controlled by the same Onion.

However, there was a split on Mesa because the MAlign kept most of the members that thought they were part of something called "the Alignment" in the dark about said alignment's true purposes. Those were completely in the dark about the Alignment's military and industrial capacity, or that it secretly controlled their arch-enemy, Manpower Inc.

One might wonder how much the population of Galton is told about the true objectives and how much of the Darius is. My guess is "not much" to either. In Galton, the population veered much more overtly militaristic, and imposing their vision through force. Meanwhile, the general population in Darius probably has no clue how the vision will be imposed/implemented in the first place.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:And some posters still question whether the sociopathic MA will actually accept carrying out Eridani violations.


How can anyone question that which has been established they would do, when they feel the ends justify it?

Beats me.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Anyway, rogue elements frighten me. The result of too much IQ and not enough common sense is the God complex.


Good point. We haven't seen dissidence from the Inner Onion yet, the likes of Detweiler, Bardasano, Anisimovna, the people who were running Galton. The closest we've seen is the Inner Outer Onion, the McBryde level. But one would expect this to happen, as all of those really intelligent people with a superiority complex would be apt to decide their way is the best way, not the current ruler's.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:When Honor was made, they should have broke the mold.


Considering that there was no mold in the first place (no specific genetic sequencing), that's effectively what's happened. Otherwise, they'd have corrected for the inability to regenerate.


cthia wrote:Why do I see medical scales in the MA's labs when I think about their genetic research. Just a little more IQ (nudging the little weight to the right with the finger). Nope, too much IQ, common sense suffers. Nudge the little weight back a little to the left until the scale balances out. Nudge, nudge. There! :roll:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Fair enough, but let me raise you: common sense is not that common. More to the point, it can shift with time.

That is my point. More IQ and less common sense means nothing. Honor just might have the right balance.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:As tlb said above, we don't know for sure that all that could be done has been done. Given the state of Beowulf's prohibition on the experimentation, I'm pretty sure Beowulf wouldn't know for sure. They'd know that there could be side-effects, but not what workarounds for those side-effects might be.

Plus, the MAlign might be more accepting of side-effects. Intelligence makes a person a sociopath? That's a feature, not a bug!

If the MA is accepting of side effects, doesn't that in itself denote a problem with their intellect and research? After all, the side effects are not what the research was shooting for. Besides, they weren't exactly thrilled with the Bardasano gene.

The fact that Honor performs so well -- in conjunction with her unprecedented abilities with the Treecats -- might that just mean that Honor's genetic mixture is closer to perfection?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by tlb   » Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:49 pm

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cthia wrote:If the MA is accepting of side effects, doesn't that in itself denounce a problem with their intellect and research? After all, the side effects are not what the research was shooting for. Besides, they weren't exactly thrilled with the Bardasano gene.

The fact that Honor performs so well, in conjunction with her unprecedented abilities with the Treecats, might that just mean that Honor's genetic mixture is closer to perfection?

No, that indicates that they are trying to navigate through the difficulties. Side-effects that can be be fixed by additional tweaking, such as Bardasano's line, might be the way forward. When you do not know the best way to get where you want to go (because there is no roadmap), then you have to allow for deviations and missteps along the way and you have to handle them the best that you can.

Perhaps Honor is better than anything that the LRPB has now, but that might be due to both unforeseen side-effects of her known genetics and the effect of 450 years of her family's interactions with the cats.
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:20 pm

Brigade XO
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How to put this gently?
We are not talking about experimentation with Fruit Flys.
We are talking about the ability to do genetic manipulations (and add, apparently, genes from other than the Human species (the "cat eyed" officer one of of the ships) and doing all sorts of splicing/ additions and or deletions of genes not found in the nominal parents of the child/experiment. We are also talking about humans and, beyond the gestation period (which will still fail catastrophically even with Honorverse medical tech if the fetus isn't viable) you have anywhere from 0 to 25+ years for the interaction (or failure of interaction) between lots and lots of genes with one another can cause the "subject" to die.....slowly and often with great trama and pain or quick decline- also with pain.
Like Herlander's fostered "daughter"- t1hey can fail at being any kind of functioning human and, at best, need some sort of institutionalization to live......not something the Alignment does. Perhaps they showed promise in developing the "turn" of intellect that the LRPB was looking for BUT they are essentially crashing at age 10 to 15 and will never maintain whatever level they seemed to be heading for because their minds (and probably their bodies) are failing.

Which is probably the reason Beowuf Code bans this kind of experimentation. Instead of 10 to perhaps 30 days and a egg to pupa to adult stage, you have at least 10 years and probably 30 or more for observation and analysis of the Alignment experimental "subjects" and you probably have no clue what actually went wrong with the massively complicated (and sometimes ever so many genes involvement in ) development of individuals and the production (or lack of) enzymes and hormones and other things that need to happen (usually sequentially) over time to make X show up in human development.

Roll the dice again IGOR, the last one curled up in a ball and cried till it died at age 10.!!!!

Great scientists the Alignment, lots of moral foundation- of some sort.
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