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Masada: State of Affairs

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Re: Masada: State of Affairs
Post by cthia   » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:29 am

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Splinter sect

Isn't that what happened here on Earth? Branches of original teachings? I surmise that they mostly formed because of disagreement about interpreting the text, and a lot because a certain religion -- and its teachings -- is too demanding. As a result these splinter sects become less and less (gasp) oppressive.

For the most part they soften. Albeit, some do become even more demanding. The Faithful is a poster child for both of those concepts.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Masada: State of Affairs
Post by tlb   » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:06 am

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cthia wrote:I said Masada would reject heathens suggesting "oppression." The Faithful, or some of the people of the Faithful, can arrive at certain conclusions on their own.

But you are forsaking :mrgreen: the original post (third post of this page) that spawned this hope & epiphany. I am specifically talking about a splinter group that might want to leave Masada and practice their own brand of religion. Or even establish a new religion on Masada.

I am suggesting a splinter sect that falls right smack dab in the middle between what is taught on Grayson and what is taught on Masada. Which, ironically, would become the "New Moderates" worshipping to a rewritten text that would be like the New Testament of Austin Grayson.

At any rate, an off-world copy of the original manuscript that was taught in Idaho is easy to verify. Send a respresentative to Old Earth to visit an authentic church in Idaho that is still practicing that denomination.

It is my notion of "the lesser of two evils."


Everyone is talking about educating the people of Masada. But what form would that education take? General education or religious education? At any rate, changes will not occur overnight. It starts with a small sect that grows into a full blown denomination. A branch of the branch of the Faithful ... of the branch of Austin Grayson ... of the branch of Idaho, if you will.

The roots of Faith.

There is a word for what you are suggesting: "apostasy". Even here on Earth the result can be death, so how much more likely that will be on Masada? ThinksMarkedly, Jonathan_S, you and I have all talked hopefully on the results of education; but how difficult would that be to implement? The Masadans will not want it and Manticore may be too weak on the ground to enforce it.

The value of learning is like the value of the Library of Alexandria and is not always appreciated:
Jean-Jacques Rousseau wrote:They say that Caliph Omar, when consulted about what had to be done with the library of Alexandria, answered as follows: "If the books of this library contain matters opposed to the Koran, they are bad and must be burned. If they contain only the doctrine of the Koran, burn them anyway, for they are superfluous." Our learned men have cited this reasoning as the height of absurdity. However, suppose Gregory the Great was there instead of Omar and the Gospel instead of the Koran. The library would still have been burned, and that might well have been the finest moment in the life of this illustrious pontiff.
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Re: Masada: State of Affairs
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:58 am

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cthia wrote:But you are forsaking :mrgreen: the original post (third post of this page) that spawned this hope & epiphany. I am specifically talking about a splinter group that might want to leave Masada and practice their own brand of religion. Or even establish a new religion on Masada.


If they already have the inclination to leave Masada, they might be open to a new interpretation that justifies their decision. They don't have to; mind you, the teachings of the Church of Humanity Unchained (Defiant) were that they should all live on Grayson, so they don't need to change their beliefs to move from Masada elsewhere.

Manticore wouldn't oppose that, even though it would be more useful for Manticore if those splinter groups stayed on Masada, and used their political and religious disagreements to drive change.

At any rate, an off-world copy of the original manuscript that was taught in Idaho is easy to verify. Send a respresentative to Old Earth to visit an authentic church in Idaho that is still practicing that denomination.


That assumes such a thing exists. It's been 1600 years since Grayson left, so things may change: the group may have disbanded at any time since, in particular at the moment the expedition left, as that would have left too few people behind. Or during the Final Wars, or during the Beowulf-driven reconstruction.

This further assumes that such a group had remained static in their teachings for the 1600 years, which we don't have any prior parallel in history for. All examples we do have are that any society evolves (whether you agree with the direction they evolved into or not is irrelevant) and so do their teachings. Whatever they're teaching today would be unrecogniseable to Austin Grayson and to any Graysons or Masadans. Even if it did remain static, it would be difficult to prove it did.

Of course, as above, if this splinter group is predisposed to finding a new line of teachings that will support their goals, then a random grouping of people in Idaho is better than most other random groupings of people.

Or the Idaho planet, which along with Marsh and Grayson are the three poster-children of Manticore economic help.

Everyone is talking about educating the people of Masada. But what form would that education take? General education or religious education? At any rate, changes will not occur overnight. It starts with a small sect that grows into a full blown denomination. A branch of the branch of the Faithful ... of the branch of Austin Grayson ... of the branch of Idaho, if you will.

The roots of Faith.


Since this is a Manticore occupation, I was thinking secular education.
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Re: Masada: State of Affairs
Post by kzt   » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:13 pm

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The leaders of the 9/11 attacks met while in German universities. One was studying Aerospace engineering, one was working on a masters in Urban Planning. And they all became much more religious and radical while studying in German universities.

So I don't necessarily think that 'education' is quite the cure-all as some people seem to want to believe.
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Re: Masada: State of Affairs
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:36 pm

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kzt wrote:The leaders of the 9/11 attacks met while in German universities. One was studying Aerospace engineering, one was working on a masters in Urban Planning. And they all became much more religious and radical while studying in German universities.

So I don't necessarily think that 'education' is quite the cure-all as some people seem to want to believe.


Maybe. The extremists weren't and wouldn't be deterred by education. But those who aren't so deeply indoctrinated may change their points of view.
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Re: Masada: State of Affairs
Post by tlb   » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:43 pm

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kzt wrote:So I don't necessarily think that 'education' is quite the cure-all as some people seem to want to believe.

There is no medicine with a hundred percent cure rate. Despite our global education progress there are still people that believe in a flat earth or a relatively young earth. Despite our success in eliminating diseases, there are people that hate vaccines.

The problem remains to discover what is the best general purpose antidote to an unreasonable "ISM", particularly any one that plans to kill the unbeliever. A good general education might help until something better comes along.
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Re: Masada: State of Affairs
Post by kzt   » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:07 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
kzt wrote:The leaders of the 9/11 attacks met while in German universities. One was studying Aerospace engineering, one was working on a masters in Urban Planning. And they all became much more religious and radical while studying in German universities.

So I don't necessarily think that 'education' is quite the cure-all as some people seem to want to believe.


Maybe. The extremists weren't and wouldn't be deterred by education. But those who aren't so deeply indoctrinated may change their points of view.

They weren't extremists until they traveled out of their native land, learned a foreign language wee enough to take university level courses and started at a secular university.
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Re: Masada: State of Affairs
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:19 pm

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kzt wrote:The leaders of the 9/11 attacks met while in German universities. One was studying Aerospace engineering, one was working on a masters in Urban Planning. And they all became much more religious and radical while studying in German universities.

So I don't necessarily think that 'education' is quite the cure-all as some people seem to want to believe.

I suspect that early childhood education and upbringing may have more effect on a person's long term beliefs than what they're exposed to at university.

But also, no education or upbringing seems like its going to cause everyone to think the same or believe the same.

The fact that 19 well educated men were also fanatics doesn't say much about whether the likelihood of fanaticism is affected by education. (Well, beyond showing that it's not a 100% cure/prevention; and I don't think anybody here was trying to claim that it was)
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Re: Masada: State of Affairs
Post by kzt   » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:37 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:The fact that 19 well educated men were also fanatics doesn't say much about whether the likelihood of fanaticism is affected by education. (Well, beyond showing that it's not a 100% cure/prevention; and I don't think anybody here was trying to claim that it was)

According to reports, they were not fanatics until they moved to Germany to attend a secular university.
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Re: Masada: State of Affairs
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:53 pm

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:The fact that 19 well educated men were also fanatics doesn't say much about whether the likelihood of fanaticism is affected by education. (Well, beyond showing that it's not a 100% cure/prevention; and I don't think anybody here was trying to claim that it was)

According to reports, they were not fanatics until they moved to Germany to attend a secular university.

Which, presumably, is when their initial upbringing about what correct behavior and beliefs should be clashed with what they saw in Western university life.



IOW - I find it very unlikely that earning degrees is what radicalized them. Advanced math and engineering can cause feeling of homicidal rage - but usually just against the authors of your textbooks :D But I can easily see how moving from a society that works the way they were taught was correct, into one that works differently, could trigger radicalization. In which case it wouldn't really be the education that caused it, but the exposure to a society that didn't follow their rules, so they might have been just as likely to be radicalized if they'd moved to Germany for any other reason. However, there's no way to know for sure.
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