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TWTSNBN: hmm, maybe this soup could be thinner...

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TWTSNBN: hmm, maybe this soup could be thinner...
Post by munroburton   » Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:07 pm

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As far as the Peeps were concerned, a standard vintage Courageous-class killed their Q-ship. There's no reason for them to know of the CL-56 refit, so theoretically it might have worked against them once(or repeatedly as long as nobody lived to tell the tales).

There are exactly two occasions in which additional Fearless-refit Courageouses could conceivably have made a difference: the near-simultaneous battles of First Hancock and Third Yeltsin.

Clearly, they would have had no further use afterwards and should immediately be withdrawn. I don't know how expensive grav lances were, but 16-32 Fearless refits might be worth the 16-32 SDs they could have blown away during the early days of that war.

The only catch is those SDs they would have blown away were probably the ones actually captured. Unfortunately, this means that not only does Honor Harrington miss out on a hefty amount of prize money, she might not have a battle wall for Fourth Yeltsin.

So, not exactly a net gain. Has this soup evaporated yet? :roll:
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Re: TWTSNBN: hmm, maybe this soup could be thinner...
Post by tlb   » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:23 pm

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I am told that the grav-lance was NOT a new weapon, but had instead been around for a while and was reasonably well understood. If so, then putting it in Fearless makes no sense; because it only works when people think that no one would be stupid enough to tear out grasers to make room for it. The point is that any amount of grasers are both more powerful and more versatile (since they also work in missile defense).

So 16 Fearless refits are NOT going to take out 16 SDs; it is unlikely that they will take out one ship of any size per battle.

It is a dead horse, precisely because the author is embarrassed that he ever made it a plot pot. This has been discussed elsewhere, seemingly because people are bored waiting for the next novel.
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Re: TWTSNBN: hmm, maybe this soup could be thinner...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:44 pm

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tlb wrote:I am told that the grav-lance was NOT a new weapon, but had instead been around for a while and was reasonably well understood. If so, then putting it in Fearless makes no sense; because it only works when people think that no one would be stupid enough to tear out grasers to make room for it. The point is that any amount of grasers are both more powerful and more versatile (since they also work in missile defense).

So 16 Fearless refits are NOT going to take out 16 SDs; it is unlikely that they will take out one ship of any size per battle.

It is a dead horse, precisely because the author is embarrassed that he ever made it a plot pot. This has been discussed elsewhere, seemingly because people are bored waiting for the next novel.

If (and it's a huge if) you can get to GL range (roughly 100,000 km), which means sneaking through or surviving missile range (stars around 7.5 million km) and energy weapon range (starts around 500,000 km) and drop the targets sidewall your energy torpedoes can tear it apart exponentially faster than a cruisers grasers would.

Even with sidewalls down a CL's grasers are going to struggle to do critical damage to an SD through its meters of broadside armor and then the additional cylinder of armor wrapped around it its core vitals. But Fearless's ETs could destroy an SD pretty quickly -- if its sidewall could be knocked down first.


However they turned Fearless into a nearly one trick pony, a giant killer, as it was too small to carry a particularly useful conventional weapons fit in addition to the GL + ETs -- so it would be at a major disadvantage in a fight against a modern destroyer; much less another light cruiser. (Though, to be fair, it was a sub-scale test-bed. If it had worked out the idea wasn't to convert more of the old Coouragious-class to that loadout; the idea was to design a new modern cruiser that incorporated an GL + ETs; and that would have presumably been large enough to carry a somewhat useful conventional weapons fit as well -- not as powerful as it could carry without the anti-waller loadout, but more than poor Fearless had)

Still, I agree that 16 Fearless conversions would be wildly unlikely to take out 16 SD. Most, if not all, would probably be killed long before reaching GL range. Now if you swarmed the SDs with 80 Fearless conversions, coming in with supporting missile fire from your own wall of battle, you might manage to kill 10-15 of the SDs.
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TWTSNBN: hmm, maybe this soup could be thinner...
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:48 pm

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munroburton wrote:Clearly, they would have had no further use afterwards and should immediately be withdrawn. I don't know how expensive grav lances were, but 16-32 Fearless refits might be worth the 16-32 SDs they could have blown away during the early days of that war.


There are at least three problems with that, two of them glaring. One is that to crew 16 to 32 Courageous or other ill-fitted light-cruisers means you are not crewing 16 to 32 properly-fitted light-cruisers that could do the job of light-cruisers as escorts in the wall of battle. The Courageous couldn't fire the latest missiles either, so they would complicate logistics further.

The second problem, and a glaring one which has been discussed to death, is that the grav lance only works at insanely short distances. We never got the account of the Third Battle of Yeltsin, but at First Hancock there was never such an opportunity. The mines got close, but the mines aren't 100k-tonne ships that still had reactors powered up. There's little reason that the Peeps would allow a single ship to get that close, much less 16 to 32 lying across their path.

The third problem and other glaring one is what happened to Honor during the war games: it worked only once. So there's no way the tactic would take out more than one ship, even assuming it worked once.

Anyway, this will be my only post in this because it is a dead horse. Let's not beat it.
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Re: TWTSNBN: hmm, maybe this soup could be thinner...
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:36 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:There are at least three problems with that, two of them glaring. One is that to crew 16 to 32 Courageous or other ill-fitted light-cruisers means you are not crewing 16 to 32 properly-fitted light-cruisers that could do the job of light-cruisers as escorts in the wall of battle. The Courageous couldn't fire the latest missiles either, so they would complicate logistics further.

The RMN started decommissioning their Courageouses in 1902 and completed their disposal during the war, in 1909. The basic idea is that those vessels which were retired between 1902 and 1905 would have instead been refitted. Even 32 of them isn't much more than the crews of one or two SDs, that's not an outright impossibility for BuPers.

The second problem, and a glaring one which has been discussed to death, is that the grav lance only works at insanely short distances. We never got the account of the Third Battle of Yeltsin, but at First Hancock there was never such an opportunity. The mines got close, but the mines aren't 100k-tonne ships that still had reactors powered up. There's little reason that the Peeps would allow a single ship to get that close, much less 16 to 32 lying across their path.

There's exactly one reason, the same one which led to Fearless' only success during the wargames; they don't know about the threat yet. I am not saying those cruisers could blow up Chin's dreadnoughts and then run over to Seaford Nine and try it again. If Admiral Parks orders that, he's the one who should face a court martial.

One detail we do have from Third Yeltsin is that a battlecruiser squadron attempted to creep around Parnell's flanks... and failed. That was the window of opportunity, if it existed, for a Fearless squadron to strike, assuming it was positioned to take advantage of the Peeps rolling/turning away from White Haven's capital ships.

As for First Hancock, that minefield ambush is exactly when they show themselves, strafing the Peeps as they pass and then running away on a reciprocal course. As I pointed out, this is not really a net gain for the RMN; they would have destroyed Chin's DNs instead of capturing them.

The third problem and other glaring one is what happened to Honor during the war games: it worked only once. So there's no way the tactic would take out more than one ship, even assuming it worked once.

I suggest re-reading the training exercises of BatCruRon 5 during SVW. They practiced simultaneous energy-range gunnery as a squadron fighting another imaginary squadron. The possibility of a Fearless squadron doing this exists.

The gap between ships in a battle wall was relatively tiny. If any part of it is within GL/ET range, pretty much of all it is. The problem of sneaking eight CLs into range isn't that much more difficult than the initial problem of sneaking just one there.

Anyway, this will be my only post in this because it is a dead horse. Let's not beat it.

It's mostly a joke. :roll: Thing is, I don't remember any beatings which were adminstered after HoS came out - and that told us the RMN had 14 SDs, 34 DNs and 86 BCs with grav lances for decades. CL-56 was a viable concept, within a very limited number of uses.

The laserhead might have finally killed the concept off for good, but it was a slow death of a thousand incremental cuts which wasn't completed until the podlayer was pioneered. Even with towed pods, fleets still had to finish battles in energy ranges(or run away).
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Re: TWTSNBN: hmm, maybe this soup could be thinner...
Post by dscott8   » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:44 am

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Just to stir the soup, what about the concept of a Grav Lance Missile? The point of the GL is to blow out the enemy's sidewalls/wedge, right? The problem with the ship-mounted GL was range. You had to get your enemy up close for it to work and for the follow-up energy torpedoes to be effective.

If a Grav Lance could be packed into a missile, it could bust sidewalls at extended range. With a follow-up of Apollo-guided shipkillers right behind it, your target would be doomed.

I know the Grav Lance/Energy Torpedo combo installed in Fearless was massive enough that they had to gut one whole broadside to install it, but that was years ago. Manticore has become the leader in reducing the volume/mass required for a given function. If Foraker and Hemphill put their heads together on this, I would expect that they could come up with a "Wedgebuster" missile.
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Re: TWTSNBN: hmm, maybe this soup could be thinner...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:54 am

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munroburton wrote:As for First Hancock, that minefield ambush is exactly when they show themselves, strafing the Peeps as they pass and then running away on a reciprocal course. As I pointed out, this is not really a net gain for the RMN; they would have destroyed Chin's DNs instead of capturing them.

Except that the BCs engaged and ran on a reciprocal course when they were detected - at about 7 million km. That's a hell of a long way from the 1/10 of a million km you need to close to for the GL to work.

Your notional Fearless squadron, if it was accompanying Sarnow's BCs would have to survive covering 6.9 million km under the combined missile fire of DNs and their covering BCs -- and the BCs may have advanced forward to engage them in energy combat before they reached the DNs. (And this was fire heavy enough that the BCs and their cruiser escorts were taking a beating from it even at those, for the time, extreme ranges -- good luck getting a few DesRons through the teeth of it!

munroburton wrote:It's mostly a joke. :roll: Thing is, I don't remember any beatings which were adminstered after HoS came out - and that told us the RMN had 14 SDs, 34 DNs and 86 BCs with grav lances for decades.
Didn't need HoS to tell us that -- that was well known from the SITS Jayne's Intelligence Review books for a decade or so before HoS was published. Though OBS (which came out 6 years or so before SITS) certainly doesn't leave you with that impression.
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TWTSNBN: hmm, maybe this soup could be thinner...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:09 am

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dscott8 wrote:Just to stir the soup, what about the concept of a Grav Lance Missile? The point of the GL is to blow out the enemy's sidewalls/wedge, right? The problem with the ship-mounted GL was range. You had to get your enemy up close for it to work and for the follow-up energy torpedoes to be effective.

If a Grav Lance could be packed into a missile, it could bust sidewalls at extended range. With a follow-up of Apollo-guided shipkillers right behind it, your target would be doomed.

I know the Grav Lance/Energy Torpedo combo installed in Fearless was massive enough that they had to gut one whole broadside to install it, but that was years ago. Manticore has become the leader in reducing the volume/mass required for a given function. If Foraker and Hemphill put their heads together on this, I would expect that they could come up with a "Wedgebuster" missile.

And there we are. The circle is complete and we're back to why RFC declared this TWTSNBN. :D

It won't work - and he got tired of endless proposals to put GLs on missiles, drones, LACs, etc.

The grav lance is more a heavy engineering system than a weapons system, a modification of the ship's impeller drive, and needs the power of the ship's wedge to form the directed lance that can burn out the target's sidewall generators.

Nothing with a wedge less powerful than a light cruiser, or modern (1905+) destroyer, could hope to generate a strong enough lance to take down a sidewall. So nope, GL missiles are never going to happen. And neither is a GL LAC -- no matter how much more effective that might theoretically make them as an capital ship killer.

(It also means you can't use it if your wedge is down; whether due to cold nodes or too much damage to your impeller rings)
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Re: TWTSNBN: hmm, maybe this soup could be thinner...
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:24 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
dscott8 wrote:Just to stir the soup, what about the concept of a Grav Lance Missile? The point of the GL is to blow out the enemy's sidewalls/wedge, right? The problem with the ship-mounted GL was range. You had to get your enemy up close for it to work and for the follow-up energy torpedoes to be effective.

If a Grav Lance could be packed into a missile, it could bust sidewalls at extended range. With a follow-up of Apollo-guided shipkillers right behind it, your target would be doomed.

I know the Grav Lance/Energy Torpedo combo installed in Fearless was massive enough that they had to gut one whole broadside to install it, but that was years ago. Manticore has become the leader in reducing the volume/mass required for a given function. If Foraker and Hemphill put their heads together on this, I would expect that they could come up with a "Wedgebuster" missile.

And there we are. The circle is complete and we're back to why RFC declared this TWTSNBN. :D

It won't work - and he got tired of endless proposals to put GLs on missiles, drones, LACs, etc.

The grav lance is more a heavy engineering system than a weapons system, a modification of the ship's impeller drive, and needs the power of the ship's wedge to form the directed lance that can burn out the target's sidewall generators.

Nothing with a wedge less powerful than a light cruiser, or modern (1905+) destroyer, could hope to generate a strong enough lance to take down a sidewall. So nope, GL missiles are never going to happen. And neither is a GL LAC -- no matter how much more effective that might theoretically make them as an capital ship killer.

(It also means you can't use it if your wedge is down; whether due to cold nodes or too much damage to your impeller rings)

Better be damn glad too, says the Spider. 'Cause I can get close enough to deploy, er, bite. And that would surely be game over.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: TWTSNBN: hmm, maybe this soup could be thinner...
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:16 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
munroburton wrote:As for First Hancock, that minefield ambush is exactly when they show themselves, strafing the Peeps as they pass and then running away on a reciprocal course. As I pointed out, this is not really a net gain for the RMN; they would have destroyed Chin's DNs instead of capturing them.

Except that the BCs engaged and ran on a reciprocal course when they were detected - at about 7 million km. That's a hell of a long way from the 1/10 of a million km you need to close to for the GL to work.

Your notional Fearless squadron, if it was accompanying Sarnow's BCs would have to survive covering 6.9 million km under the combined missile fire of DNs and their covering BCs -- and the BCs may have advanced forward to engage them in energy combat before they reached the DNs. (And this was fire heavy enough that the BCs and their cruiser escorts were taking a beating from it even at those, for the time, extreme ranges -- good luck getting a few DesRons through the teeth of it!


No, they wouldn't be part of Sarnow's group. They would be lying doggo as part of the minefield, mostly relying on the Peep dreadnoughts' velocity to bring them into and then out of weapons range - more or less exactly how D'Orville's flagship was nailed that one time. Then they roll and away they go in the opposite direction. Hideously vulnerable to the Peep survivors concentrating upon them with missiles if they choose to, but that does take those missiles off Sarnow's group in the meantime.

Jonathan_S wrote:Didn't need HoS to tell us that -- that was well known from the SITS Jayne's Intelligence Review books for a decade or so before HoS was published. Though OBS (which came out 6 years or so before SITS) certainly doesn't leave you with that impression.

Ah, never got myself a copy of SITS. It's not just OBS which doesn't leave that impression, none of the subsequent novels feature an example of those ships doing anything with that particular weapon.

From the reader's perspective, it shows up once, shoots and vanishes. Perhaps the reason it's been on my mind lately(aside from a recent reread of OBS) is that by now spider ships are rather similar. They have not been an element in any of the novels since SftS/MoH, published in 2009 and 2010 respectively, aside from maybe the Detweiler yacht. And TEIF pretty clearly indicated that the Alignment probably isn't planning to use them for another 30-50 years.
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