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Finished the last book in the main series. I miss Honor.

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Finished the last book in the main series. I miss Honor.
Post by TheNorthWind   » Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:21 am

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I just read the series in the last month. Hello. :)

I miss Honor. :( I'm trying to read the side series after finishing Uncompromising Honor and it's just not hitting the spot for me.

I enjoyed the space navy focus, I liked the 'Holmesian' style of Honor's POV when commanding a ship or fleet, and I liked the straightforward stakes of a space battle. Reading Crown of Slaves, the feeling of a hidden sword of damocles hanging over the girls' (Berry and Ruth) heads is just too emotionally intense for me. Trying to follow the plot when most of it is subtle, hidden, subterfuge stuff, especially when the characters I care about don't have a kilometre of battle steel and an impeller wedge between them and the enemy is a lot more draining.

Fourteen books, of course, is already a lot and more than a person has a right to ask. I'm not demanding anything, I just really miss the Honor stories and the RMN. :')
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Re: Finished the last book in the main series. I miss Honor.
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:22 pm

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TheNorthWind wrote:I just read the series in the last month. Hello. :)

I miss Honor. :( I'm trying to read the side series after finishing Uncompromising Honor and it's just not hitting the spot for me.

I enjoyed the space navy focus, I liked the 'Holmesian' style of Honor's POV when commanding a ship or fleet, and I liked the straightforward stakes of a space battle. Reading Crown of Slaves, the feeling of a hidden sword of damocles hanging over the girls' (Berry and Ruth) heads is just too emotionally intense for me. Trying to follow the plot when most of it is subtle, hidden, subterfuge stuff, especially when the characters I care about don't have a kilometre of battle steel and an impeller wedge between them and the enemy is a lot more draining.

Fourteen books, of course, is already a lot and more than a person has a right to ask. I'm not demanding anything, I just really miss the Honor stories and the RMN. :')


Hello TheNorthWind, welcome to the forum.

I feel the same. Can't wait for more books to come!

But if you've "only" read 14 books, then you're missing quite a few! I recommend you read both the Crown of Slaves and the Saganami Island sub-series, if you haven't. SI are not really a separate series, since the events are interlinked with the main series; CS was slightly more apart... but that definitely no longer applies to To End in Fire, the fourth CS book.
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Re: Finished the last book in the main series. I miss Honor.
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:11 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
TheNorthWind wrote:I just read the series in the last month. Hello. :)

I miss Honor. :( I'm trying to read the side series after finishing Uncompromising Honor and it's just not hitting the spot for me.

I enjoyed the space navy focus, I liked the 'Holmesian' style of Honor's POV when commanding a ship or fleet, and I liked the straightforward stakes of a space battle. Reading Crown of Slaves, the feeling of a hidden sword of damocles hanging over the girls' (Berry and Ruth) heads is just too emotionally intense for me. Trying to follow the plot when most of it is subtle, hidden, subterfuge stuff, especially when the characters I care about don't have a kilometre of battle steel and an impeller wedge between them and the enemy is a lot more draining.

Fourteen books, of course, is already a lot and more than a person has a right to ask. I'm not demanding anything, I just really miss the Honor stories and the RMN. :')


Hello TheNorthWind, welcome to the forum.

I feel the same. Can't wait for more books to come!

But if you've "only" read 14 books, then you're missing quite a few! I recommend you read both the Crown of Slaves and the Saganami Island sub-series, if you haven't. SI are not really a separate series, since the events are interlinked with the main series; CS was slightly more apart... but that definitely no longer applies to To End in Fire, the fourth CS book.


After reading the OP's post last week, I realized what I was really jonsing for, Just a simple PoV story focused on a single ship (or squadron) with some intrigue and ship to ship action. A modicum of details concerning the bigger picture just to understand what's really driving events, but the depth of the story following our PoV characters going about their (interesting) day.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Finished the last book in the main series. I miss Honor.
Post by cthia   » Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:55 am

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I second the motion on missing single ship or squadron action. But I don't think single ship action is normal. Something has to go awry to leave a CO out on a limb alone. Honor was left to her own devices in the Basilisk System because Young abandoned her. Meghan Petersen was left alone after her squadron was destroyed.

But I too would like to see more scenes showcasing single ship talent and tactics.

I wish I knew more of the RMN's policy to new graduates as far as their ship assignments. Honor was given command of an obscure ship we have never been given any details on. The wiki says HMS Hawkwing was a light attack craft. I thought that nomenclature was only given to non hyper capable LACs, but Hawkwing was a destroyer and destroyers are hyper capable.

It could be that Honor just didn't see much action worth writing about in a ship tethered to the MBS, if indeed Hawkwing was a LAC. There just wasn't much action for a LAC in 1900 PD besides mundane traffic duty. I can't see how non hyper capable commands give any indication of how capable an officer is, since the first command appears to be a prerequisite for a hyper command.

At any rate, I think a Roland would be a great first ship.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Finished the last book in the main series. I miss Honor.
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:49 am

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cthia wrote:I second the motion on missing single ship or squadron action. But I don't think single ship action is normal. Something has to go awry to leave a CO out on a limb alone. Honor was left to her own devices in the Basilisk System because Young abandoned her. Meghan Petersen was left alone after her squadron was destroyed.

But I too would like to see more scenes showcasing single ship talent and tactics.

I wish I knew more of the RMN's policy to new graduates as far as their ship assignments. Honor was given command of an obscure ship we have never been given any details on. The wiki says HMS Hawkwing was a light attack craft. I thought that nomenclature was only given to non hyper capable LACs, but Hawkwing was a destroyer and destroyers are hyper capable.

It could be that Honor just didn't see much action worth writing about in a ship tethered to the MBS, if indeed Hawkwing was a LAC. There just wasn't much action for a LAC in 1900 PD besides mundane traffic duty. I can't see how non hyper capable commands give any indication of how capable an officer is, since the first command appears to be a prerequisite for a hyper command.

At any rate, I think a Roland would be a great first ship.


Hawkwing was a Falcon class DD, Honor had a LAC command (LAC 113) before that. The mission that ended Honor's cruise in the Hawkwing was in the IFF anthology. The Hawkwing was later seen as a escort of the Haupmann Cruise liner in HoE and was lost fending off a PRH BC.

I was thinking a modern story, set in Silesia - maybe an Avalon or Sag-C runs into some old Silesian ships run by a local governor who just hasn't gotten the message yet. We get a look about what is happening in Silesia after the merger - but most of the focus is on the ship.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Finished the last book in the main series. I miss Honor.
Post by Dauntless   » Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:12 am

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Honor's first deployment, her middie cruise, Honor was assigned to HMS War Madien and older CA doing Anti Pirate work like most of the fleet at this time. full details of her adventure can be found in the story Ms Midshipwoman Harrington, most easily found in anthlogy 3 "Changer of Worlds"

Honor's first command was the LAC of which we have no real info on, beyond it happened, and this was NOT HMS Hawkwing. Hawkwing was a destroyer and was her first and only Hyper command before attending the crusher, a practice that was on the decline. just a few years later no-one got a hyper warship command without passing the crusher. For a story of Honor's time aboard Hawkwing look up the story "Lets Dance", from anthology 5 "In Fire Forged".

and of course we all know what happened after she passed the Crusher.

I don't think a Roland is a good choice for a "hero" ship. there were too many comprises in both crew and ship and they just don't work except as low cost (compared to a Sag-C) way to get Mk 16s out to formations that are still running older ships.

An Avalon at least has a full sized crew and marine detachment, plus is able do more, thus more things for us readers to see, and the LERMs give it a decent range, even if the enemy has stolen cataphrachpts.

best choice probably is a Sag-C like Hexapuma, the ship is just more flexible, tougher, more endurance etc that the ship can get into all sorts of trouble for our reading pleasure.
Last edited by Dauntless on Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finished the last book in the main series. I miss Honor.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:15 am

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cthia wrote:I wish I knew more of the RMN's policy to new graduates as far as their ship assignments. Honor was given command of an obscure ship we have never been given any details on. The wiki says HMS Hawkwing was a light attack craft. I thought that nomenclature was only given to non hyper capable LACs, but Hawkwing was a destroyer and destroyers are hyper capable.

Oof, that sentence in Honor's bio on the wiki is poorly written. Whoever edited / created it didn't link to the article on HMS Hotwing; but also by added extra commas which confuse the list.
Honorverse Fandom Wiki wrote:Following her Midshipman cruise aboard the heavy cruiser HMS War Maiden, she went through a number of positions aboard RMN vessels and rose in rank, eventually being given command of a light attack craft in 1886 PD, a destroyer, HMS Hawkwing (unknown to 1900 PD) and a hyper-capable starship, the light cruiser HMS Fearless, in 1900 PD.

"a light attack craft" and "a destroyer" are two separate postings. And why did they leave "a hyper-capable starship" between Hawkwing and Fearless; when Hawkwing is equally hyper-capable?

Another examples of where fan created/edited sources like the Wiki aren't entirely to be trusted.

It's clearer if you'd scrolled down to the section on her service record; but then you have to find the entries which say "Commanding Officer" and then see which ones were ships vs which ones were squadron or area commands.

Her ship commands were:
* HMLAC 113
* HMS Hawkwing (Falcon-class destroyer)
* HMS Fearless (Courageous-class light cruiser)
* HMS Fearless (Star Knight-class heavy cruiser)
* HMS Nike (Reliant-class battlecruiser)
* HMS Wayfarer (Trojan-class armed merchant cruiser
* HMS Unconquered (unknown class of light cruiser; honorary posting)


However evidence an officer is ready for a hyper-capable command generally comes from observing them in their prior stint(s) as XO. Between HMLAC 113 and Hawkwing Honor apparently served 3 stints as executive officer (on HMS Trenchant [Jaynes], HMS on HMS Broadsword [WoH:Hard Way Home], and HMS Perseus [Jaynes]) followed by taking the Commanding Officer's Course.[1]

Her officer evaluations from those postings, and grade in that course, would likely count far more for whether or not she'd be offered command than how she'd done running a little old-style LAC around the Manticore system.

-------
[1] Full disclosure; I took the wiki's word on the two Jaynes references as my copy isn't accessible at the moment.
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Re: Finished the last book in the main series. I miss Honor.
Post by cthia   » Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:56 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:I wish I knew more of the RMN's policy to new graduates as far as their ship assignments. Honor was given command of an obscure ship we have never been given any details on. The wiki says HMS Hawkwing was a light attack craft. I thought that nomenclature was only given to non hyper capable LACs, but Hawkwing was a destroyer and destroyers are hyper capable.

Oof, that sentence in Honor's bio on the wiki is poorly written. Whoever edited / created it didn't link to the article on HMS Hotwing; but also by added extra commas which confuse the list.
Honorverse Fandom Wiki wrote:Following her Midshipman cruise aboard the heavy cruiser HMS War Maiden, she went through a number of positions aboard RMN vessels and rose in rank, eventually being given command of a light attack craft in 1886 PD, a destroyer, HMS Hawkwing (unknown to 1900 PD) and a hyper-capable starship, the light cruiser HMS Fearless, in 1900 PD.

"a light attack craft" and "a destroyer" are two separate postings. And why did they leave "a hyper-capable starship" between Hawkwing and Fearless; when Hawkwing is equally hyper-capable?

Another examples of where fan created/edited sources like the Wiki aren't entirely to be trusted.

It's clearer if you'd scrolled down to the section on her service record; but then you have to find the entries which say "Commanding Officer" and then see which ones were ships vs which ones were squadron or area commands.

Her ship commands were:
* HMLAC 113
* HMS Hawkwing (Falcon-class destroyer)
* HMS Fearless (Courageous-class light cruiser)
* HMS Fearless (Star Knight-class heavy cruiser)
* HMS Nike (Reliant-class battlecruiser)
* HMS Wayfarer (Trojan-class armed merchant cruiser
* HMS Unconquered (unknown class of light cruiser; honorary posting)


However evidence an officer is ready for a hyper-capable command generally comes from observing them in their prior stint(s) as XO. Between HMLAC 113 and Hawkwing Honor apparently served 3 stints as executive officer (on HMS Trenchant [Jaynes], HMS on HMS Broadsword [WoH:Hard Way Home], and HMS Perseus [Jaynes]) followed by taking the Commanding Officer's Course.[1]

Her officer evaluations from those postings, and grade in that course, would likely count far more for whether or not she'd be offered command than how she'd done running a little old-style LAC around the Manticore system.

-------
[1] Full disclosure; I took the wiki's word on the two Jaynes references as my copy isn't accessible at the moment.

Thanx abunch for clearing that up.

Was that the usual policy? A non hyper command first? I would think a stint aboard someone else's ship should be first. You know, like "Driver's Education." :D

HMLAC 113 was probably not as capable as the SL's LACs. Honor probably would have given up some armament for more legroom. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Finished the last book in the main series. I miss Honor.
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:44 pm

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cthia wrote:Was that the usual policy? A non hyper command first? I would think a stint aboard someone else's ship should be first. You know, like "Driver's Education." :D

HMLAC 113 was probably not as capable as the SL's LACs. Honor probably would have given up some armament for more legroom. LOL


I don't think it was standard practice, since there must have been only a couple dozen LACs in the entire RMN at the time (they still had frigates too). Rotating all the Lt. Cmdr or Cmdr through them would mean each spends just a couple of weeks as the CO, which doesn't mean much for experience. Heck, even a 6-month stint as a CO aboard a LAC doesn't count for much. You're commanding half a dozen to a dozen officers and ratings, probably, and always attached to the system command. The TO aboard a destroyer probably has a larger department to oversee and bigger responsibilities.

So I'd say that going from CO of a LAC to XO of any hyper-capable ship is an upgrade. The CO gives the orders, but it's the XO that runs the ship. However, from ATO of a superdreadnought to CO of a LAC doesn't seem like an upgrade to me. It's a command, but what of it? Is this maybe another of Young's shenanigans to keep Honor back? He got his friends to give her a command, which is prestigious, but is actually setting her back over a year until she got that XO slot?
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Re: Finished the last book in the main series. I miss Honor.
Post by TheNorthWind   » Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:46 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Hello TheNorthWind, welcome to the forum.

I feel the same. Can't wait for more books to come!


Same! And I've heard David doesn't want to do more Honor PoV books anymore but I'd love it if he did.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
But if you've "only" read 14 books, then you're missing quite a few! I recommend you read both the Crown of Slaves and the Saganami Island sub-series, if you haven't. SI are not really a separate series, since the events are interlinked with the main series; CS was slightly more apart... but that definitely no longer applies to To End in Fire, the fourth CS book.


I still plan to read more! I'm just pacing myself now because I don't want to end up at a point where I have nothing else to read in this universe for a while.

Theemile wrote: After reading the OP's post last week, I realized what I was really jonsing for, Just a simple PoV story focused on a single ship (or squadron) with some intrigue and ship to ship action. A modicum of details concerning the bigger picture just to understand what's really driving events, but the depth of the story following our PoV characters going about their (interesting) day.


Exactly so! My greatest moments of enjoyment I found in the series consisted of when the politics and the relationships set up stakes and a background for that epic fleet action where Honor is sent out to accomplish some strategic goal. I think the best example of that storytelling formula working for me – apart from the early series where Honor had far smaller commands – was the Battle of Lovat in At All Costs.

If I could, I'd want one of those in every book for another ten books, at least. :p

This is where the series really shines. It's what it was built on, what the first several books set up in terms of both theme, lore, and character capability.

And Honor really is practically Holmesian in how she logically does battle. Her tactical brilliance is an important part of what makes the series so enjoyable imo.

I may be waxing brilliance or overexaggerating a bit here, but I just binged the main series and haven't gotten over my initial excitement yet. :)
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