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Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT

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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:54 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:So, did Kingsford recall Raging Justice 2?
I have a hard time believing that he would not have recalled them -with the small problem that there were all those ships that now needed to return.....QUIETLY, Silently, one could almost say COVERTLY to someplace other than SOL because a putting them at SOL with no basing/supply/yard ability would be foolish. You also have to make sure that they are not going to come across someone who is going to REPORT them to the GA. Once they get back into "present" League space your going to have to keep them from being a temptation for somebody to use there for something unfortunate.
The SDs are still death traps and if somebody starts hitting anything with SLN SDs there will be hell to pay for the League in general and SLN in particular........somebody (under orders of course) high just have to go hunting and bring her rather large and dangerous ships to start killing ANY SLN ship they find till they are no longer a problem.


Why would he need to have them return quietly? First, he'd have ordered their return before the Battle of Sol. Second, they were still inside the League, so they wouldn't be violating the terms of the surrender, even if they had known them when they started their march back. And third, under the terms of the surrender, returning back into League space was the expected course of action.

I doubt he'd have ordered them to return to Sol. They weren't from Sol in the first place. So he either ordered each squadron to return to wherever they had originally come from (and some would have returned to Sol), or he realised that was pointless and ordered them to go to the system where they'd be scrapped anyway.

Or he just punted and ignored the problem for the time being, and left those ships in place wherever they were staging, with skeleton crews.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by Relax   » Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:29 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:So, did Kingsford recall Raging Justice 2?
I have a hard time believing that he would not have recalled them -with the small problem that there were all those ships that now needed to return.....QUIETLY,


Why would he need to have them return quietly?


Too muchhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsMDKjb54EM%20party%20rock%20antheming on way home.

Disturb the space zombie hampsters then we are hip dip in Aliens vs. Humans war and that book series will never finish before I am dead.
_________
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT*
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:40 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:IINM, Honor's decree demanded that the SLN not be found outside of its jurisdiction? How will that deter them from a ravenous build rate?
It won't -- and wasn't intended to.
Telling the SLN to stay within the League's boarders wasn't an attempt to limit its size.

It was to keep it from continuing to occasionally play pirate or otherwise be the OFS's bully in the verge. Or rather it was a statement than the GA would view an SLN warship being outside the League's boarder as prima facie evidence that it was engaged in such illegal piratical activates.

That is the part that sticks in my craw. I doubt it sits too well with the SL either. And it will certainly be a source of tension for the SLN. I cannot imagine there will be one bit more love loss between the SLN and the GA than there was with the pre-alliance Andermani and the RMN.

And how long will the SLN need to ask for permission? How long does the decree stand?

I see another "Jessica Epps" event kicking off tensions in "Solarian space."

It is funny how the SL definitely needs an Embassy on Manticore now. Having one on Grayson and on Haven might not be a bad idea either.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT*
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:21 pm

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:It won't -- and wasn't intended to.
Telling the SLN to stay within the League's boarders wasn't an attempt to limit its size.

It was to keep it from continuing to occasionally play pirate or otherwise be the OFS's bully in the verge. Or rather it was a statement than the GA would view an SLN warship being outside the League's boarder as prima facie evidence that it was engaged in such illegal piratical activates.

That is the part that sticks in my craw. I doubt it sits too well with the SL either. And it will certainly be a source of tension for the SLN. I cannot imagine there will be one bit more love loss between the SLN and the GA than there was with the pre-alliance Andermani and the RMN.

And how long will the SLN need to ask for permission? How long does the decree stand?

I see another "Jessica Epps" event kicking off tensions in "Solarian space."

It is funny how the SL definitely needs an Embassy on Manticore now. Having one on Grayson and on Haven might not be a bad idea either.

I don't know. Probably long enough that the Grand Alliance feels some assurance that a friendly port visit from a SLN ship to a verge system is actually friendly and not the local protection racket toughs coming around for a "friendly visit" about "how it would be a shame if something happened to your place"

But how that would actually work, whether that's a fixed duration for their restriction, or until something is negotiated with the government after the new constitution is in place, or they go around and ask various systems if they want to opt out from (or opt in to) SLN visits, or relax restrictions for systems who're strong enough to at least be willing and able to get a complaint to the GA should a League warship try to pressure them, I just don't know.

However I was left with the impression that it was intended to be a fairly short term thing -- a temporary clear bright-line rule in place while the messy details got worked out. (Though given Honorverse transit times and how long it takes to even move messages around even a short term home confinement for the SLN might still last a few years)
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT*
Post by tlb   » Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:58 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:It won't -- and wasn't intended to.
Telling the SLN to stay within the League's boarders wasn't an attempt to limit its size.

It was to keep it from continuing to occasionally play pirate or otherwise be the OFS's bully in the verge. Or rather it was a statement than the GA would view an SLN warship being outside the League's boarder as prima facie evidence that it was engaged in such illegal piratical activates.

cthia wrote:That is the part that sticks in my craw. I doubt it sits too well with the SL either. And it will certainly be a source of tension for the SLN. I cannot imagine there will be one bit more love loss between the SLN and the GA than there was with the pre-alliance Andermani and the RMN.

And how long will the SLN need to ask for permission? How long does the decree stand?

I see another "Jessica Epps" event kicking off tensions in "Solarian space."

It is funny how the SL definitely needs an Embassy on Manticore now. Having one on Grayson and on Haven might not be a bad idea either.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't know. Probably long enough that the Grand Alliance feels some assurance that a friendly port visit from a SLN ship to a verge system is actually friendly and not the local protection racket toughs coming around for a "friendly visit" about "how it would be a shame if something happened to your place"

But how that would actually work, whether that's a fixed duration for their restriction, or until something is negotiated with the government after the new constitution is in place, or they go around and ask various systems if they want to opt out from (or opt in to) SLN visits, or relax restrictions for systems who're strong enough to at least be willing and able to get a complaint to the GA should a League warship try to pressure them, I just don't know.

However I was left with the impression that it was intended to be a fairly short term thing -- a temporary clear bright-line rule in place while the messy details got worked out. (Though given Honorverse transit times and how long it takes to even move messages around even a short term home confinement for the SLN might still last a few years)

There is a major difference between the expansionist policies of the old Solarian League and the Andermani: the Andermani expansion arose from the central policy of the government to increase the Empire when feasible; while it would be more correct to say that the force behind the SL expansion was unfettered corporate greed, where the government involvement only arose through corruption. Generally this did not increase the membership of the League at any significant rate, so the core members took no notice.

Provided the corporate greed and corruption are kept under control in the new League, then there will be no pressure from any of the Core Worlds to expand the League's reach; except in response to actions by criminal organizations, like the Malign.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT*
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:41 pm

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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:It won't -- and wasn't intended to.
Telling the SLN to stay within the League's boarders wasn't an attempt to limit its size.

It was to keep it from continuing to occasionally play pirate or otherwise be the OFS's bully in the verge. Or rather it was a statement than the GA would view an SLN warship being outside the League's boarder as prima facie evidence that it was engaged in such illegal piratical activates.

cthia wrote:That is the part that sticks in my craw. I doubt it sits too well with the SL either. And it will certainly be a source of tension for the SLN. I cannot imagine there will be one bit more love loss between the SLN and the GA than there was with the pre-alliance Andermani and the RMN.

And how long will the SLN need to ask for permission? How long does the decree stand?

I see another "Jessica Epps" event kicking off tensions in "Solarian space."

It is funny how the SL definitely needs an Embassy on Manticore now. Having one on Grayson and on Haven might not be a bad idea either.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't know. Probably long enough that the Grand Alliance feels some assurance that a friendly port visit from a SLN ship to a verge system is actually friendly and not the local protection racket toughs coming around for a "friendly visit" about "how it would be a shame if something happened to your place"

But how that would actually work, whether that's a fixed duration for their restriction, or until something is negotiated with the government after the new constitution is in place, or they go around and ask various systems if they want to opt out from (or opt in to) SLN visits, or relax restrictions for systems who're strong enough to at least be willing and able to get a complaint to the GA should a League warship try to pressure them, I just don't know.

However I was left with the impression that it was intended to be a fairly short term thing -- a temporary clear bright-line rule in place while the messy details got worked out. (Though given Honorverse transit times and how long it takes to even move messages around even a short term home confinement for the SLN might still last a few years)

There is a major difference between the expansionist policies of the old Solarian League and the Andermani: the Andermani expansion arose from the central policy of the government to increase the Empire when feasible; while it would be more correct to say that the force behind the SL expansion was unfettered corporate greed, where the government involvement only arose through corruption. Generally this did not increase the membership of the League at any significant rate, so the core members took no notice.

Provided the corporate greed and corruption are kept under control in the new League, then there will be no pressure from any of the Core Worlds to expand the League's reach; except in response to actions by criminal organizations, like the Malign.

Good point. Yet, it seems to emphasize the fact that the SLN would feel the same bitterness and has the same reasons for said bitterness as the Andermani did. Even with the shoe on the other foot. Two wrongs don't make a right. Is this some long winded scheme to limit the players in the Verge to GA governments?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT*
Post by kzt   » Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:36 pm

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tlb wrote:while it would be more correct to say that the force behind the SL expansion was unfettered corporate greed, where the government involvement only arose through corruption. Generally this did not increase the membership of the League at any significant rate, so the core members took no notice.

Provided the corporate greed and corruption are kept under control in the new League, then there will be no pressure from any of the Core Worlds to expand the League's reach; except in response to actions by criminal organizations, like the Malign.

No, it’s more complex than that. Systems have moved from being OFS clients to members of the SL.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT*
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:41 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:They are the largest system in the Galaxy with the largest Navy. I don't think the largest collection of planets having the largest Navy but yet the weakest Navy is natural. Especially in light of the SL's lone history of dominance. Mother nature will take its course.


It wasn't the weakest. It was the strongest for all of its history, except the last quarter century (and didn't realise it).

Correct, they didn't realise it. But since they are no longer ignorant, to remain so in light of their mammoth attributes (and other more human reasons) isn't natural.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The problem is the metric you're applying. Yes, it can't dedicate as many ships per system as other polities and navies can. But in their thinking that was the wrong measurement. And I have to agree with them.

That makes two of us. Why attack someone's brother if there are a thousand of them living at home.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:They had 2000 to 2500 superdreadnoughts in service, which was more than 4x as many as the next biggest navy, the PN. And probably bigger than all the other navies combined too. The SLN Battle Fleet was a deterrent fleet: strong enough to punish anyone who would be foolish enough to attack a League system or protectorate. That meant no one in their right mind would.

I can understand that, the numbers that matter are the numbers that will come calling on your Home System.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's cold comfort for the poor system that did get attacked, I agree. And I don't doubt that many of them will now clamour to be better protected against this kind of attack that has never come from an enemy anyway. And I do think the SLN will rebuild itself to become again the biggest navy, attempting to compensate the GF's technological headstart (quality) with numbers (quantity). But it won't be a 50:1 disparity.

And therein lies a hint of a brewing problem that is inherent in Honor's demands.

The SL has a responsibility, indeed it has a right to protect its own space. If pirates begin to attack its freighters the SL has a right to pursue and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. Pursuing them may lead to excursions outside of League space.

Attackers can try to capitalize on the fact that the bulldog cannot leave its playpen.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:The fact that these spin off polities can each outbuild the GA also gives their previous master pause. If each spinoff polity join together to form their own Block of Successor States (BOSS) then they could challenge the League. This is essentially what the MA had in mind with the RF. There is no reason something like that can not form on its own naturally. And if they do form a BOSS, their revanchism could be directed towards their former League of oppressors.


Right. And BTW, nice acronym.

Thanks. I almost used Band of Successor States, which would not have changed the acronym. BOSS also sounds quite a bit suggestive, aggressive, and foreboding.

cthia wrote:One of the most effective deterrents against being a bully is to have a peer power. The new SLN won't be able to operate in a vacuum (metaphorically, of course, because they do operate in space) because the eyes of all the other navies will be on them. Conversely, the SLN's eyes will be on each individual navy from those splinters and the GF. If none of them can take on ALL the other ones at the same time, then none of them can get away with bullying their way around without consequence.

Which, indeed, goes against the MAlign plans.

Interesting as well.

A problem could arise if piracy in SL space rises, perhaps because the SLN has lost a little of their fear factor (or because of some nefarious master plan) and they can no longer police and protect their own legal bona fide interests because they are on probation.

It is like a convict trying to get his life together and needs to conduct legitimate business while an ankle bracelet is keeping him away from a certain area because it has a gun shop nearby, etc.

.
Last edited by cthia on Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT*
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:58 pm

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cthia wrote:A problem could arise if piracy in SL space rises, perhaps because the SLN has lost a little of their fear factor (or because of some nefarious master plan) and they can no longer police and protect their own legal bona fide interests because they are on probation.

It is like a convict trying to get his life together and needs to conduct legitimate business while an ankle bracelet is keeping him away from a certain area because it has a gun shop nearby, etc.


That's a good point, but as the discussion with Jonathan above shown, I don't think the prohibition was meant to be long-term. And it definitely did not talk about prohibiting the SLN from its own territory. Kingsford has every right to demand loosening of those restrictions if he feels his hands are tied and he has a good chance of getting them, provided the SLN has stopped participating in strong-arming tactics by then.

And this is all about light units. You don't send an SD squadron to deal with pirates any more than the USN sends a supercarrier group to deal with a foreign fishing boat entering US coastal waters (that's a Coast Guard job anyway).
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT*
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:14 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:A problem could arise if piracy in SL space rises, perhaps because the SLN has lost a little of their fear factor (or because of some nefarious master plan) and they can no longer police and protect their own legal bona fide interests because they are on probation.

It is like a convict trying to get his life together and needs to conduct legitimate business while an ankle bracelet is keeping him away from a certain area because it has a gun shop nearby, etc.


That's a good point, but as the discussion with Jonathan above shown, I don't think the prohibition was meant to be long-term. And it definitely did not talk about prohibiting the SLN from its own territory. Kingsford has every right to demand loosening of those restrictions if he feels his hands are tied and he has a good chance of getting them, provided the SLN has stopped participating in strong-arming tactics by then.

That evokes even more potential problems inherent in the design. I think that it is also obvious to the pirates that hunting season in SL space is for a limited time only. That is the point. Take advantage of the bounty while the Gorilla is chained to his pen. It is a limited window of opportunity. Which also implies the need to grab as much as possible until this bountiful window of opportunity closes. Looting and pilfering should have begun as soon as Honor's decree went out.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And this is all about light units. You don't send an SD squadron to deal with pirates any more than the USN sends a supercarrier group to deal with a foreign fishing boat entering US coastal waters (that's a Coast Guard job anyway).

Well, it should be all about light units, but not necessarily. It could be a state sponsored operation featuring larger units.

It could happen in or out of the light, in which case it would actually be termed commandeering. As an act of war. But pursuing them has to proceed. Quickly. Before the spoils (evidence) are divided and the perpetrators vanish.

And if you suspect it is an entire system sponsoring the operation, you may need to arrive with a large enough force to force cooperation.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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