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Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT

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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by Relax   » Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:06 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Relax wrote:
Actually, the 150 quote is either wrong or RFC retconned himself later in UH as there were MORE than 150 that got destroyed at SOL a couple chapters later. It is safe to say that all the SLN SD's are unmanned or destroyed.


They probably didn't get to that phase yet - plans don't just happen overnight.

There still are 5 other BF Fleet bases with active fleets and reserve formation outside the Sol system in the Inner Sphere, not to mention the unreturned fleet of "Raging Justice 2" (the 2nd Blunder). Not saying that plans didn't change, but there are plenty other SDs swimming around to be kept or recycled.

One would think you would have been 100% correct rationally speaking as a reason for this conundrum, except in UH we are also told by Kingsford to Kolotsov that all the SD's had already had their crews removed and he was RESTORING 150 SD's to use in BC roles out in the shell/protectorates instead of BC's to free up BC's to attack Beowulf.

So..... << shrugs >>
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by kzt   » Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:11 pm

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The decision to shut down all the SDs was, in a word, nuts. For example, the big punitive expeditions. Why not use the SDs for that and keep the BCs for things where you might actually be expected to fight?

It’s not like they needed the crews given that replacements were probably at least 5 years out.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by Relax   » Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:25 pm

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kzt wrote:The decision to shut down all the SDs was, in a word, nuts. For example, the big punitive expeditions. Why not use the SDs for that and keep the BCs for things where you might actually be expected to fight?

It’s not like they needed the crews given that replacements were probably at least 5 years out.


The reason is not explicitly given in UH, but if one runs the numbers of operation duty SLN officers/men, it pencils out.

In UH, we are told SLN has 27,000,000 active duty personnel out of 155M. Those 2200+ SD's swallow up 16,500,000 personnel. We are also told they now have 4400 BC in service @2400/ship this equates to another 10.5M personnel. The eagle eyed among us have done the quick math and see that if one adds the SD+BC personell together this equates to having ZERO CA, CL, DD ships. Clearly this is not true.

What the other 155M-27M SLN personnel are doing on payroll makes one think they are actually ghosts. Rather their pay is going directly into the pockets of certain Admirals.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by kzt   » Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:53 pm

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Relax wrote:
kzt wrote:The decision to shut down all the SDs was, in a word, nuts. For example, the big punitive expeditions. Why not use the SDs for that and keep the BCs for things where you might actually be expected to fight?

It’s not like they needed the crews given that replacements were probably at least 5 years out.


The reason is not explicitly given in UH, but if one runs the numbers of operation duty SLN officers/men, it pencils out.

In UH, we are told SLN has 27,000,000 active duty personnel out of 155M. Those 2200+ SD's swallow up 16,500,000 personnel. We are also told they now have 4400 BC in service @2400/ship this equates to another 10.5M personnel. The eagle eyed among us have done the quick math and see that if one adds the SD+BC personell together this equates to having ZERO CA, CL, DD ships. Clearly this is not true.

What the other 155M-27M SLN personnel are doing on payroll makes one think they are actually ghosts. Rather their pay is going directly into the pockets of certain Admirals.

They didn't have tens of thousands of BCs in storage. They had hundreds. The older ones are just as useless as the older SDs.

So the numbers make no sense unless you wanted to create a huge class of unemployed and embittered military vets out to get you. I'm sure that will work out at least as well as it did when George Bush did it.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by Relax   » Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:35 am

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kzt wrote:
Relax wrote: The eagle eyed among us have done the quick math and see that if one adds the SD+BC personell together this equates to having ZERO CA, CL, DD ships. Clearly this is not true.

What the other 155M-27M SLN personnel are doing on payroll makes one think they are actually ghosts. Rather their pay is going directly into the pockets of certain Admirals.

They didn't have tens of thousands of BCs in storage. They had hundreds. The older ones are just as useless as the older SDs.

So the numbers make no sense unless you wanted to create a huge class of unemployed and embittered military vets out to get you. I'm sure that will work out at least as well as it did when George Bush did it.


Sigh,... which numbers are you having difficulty using multiplication and subtraction with? It pencils out perfectly... except the 155M number which are not active and apparently cannot be brought to active service either.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by kzt   » Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:51 am

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You shutdown all the SDs. You have no huge stockpiles of BCs or lighter ships. So what do you do with these millions of military personnel that are now unemployed?
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by munroburton   » Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:00 am

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kzt wrote:You shutdown all the SDs. You have no huge stockpiles of BCs or lighter ships. So what do you do with these millions of military personnel that are now unemployed?


Send them back to their respective worlds, where they're going to start lobbying their system governments into setting up their own navies. They almost certainly discharged Sol-system citizens from the service last.

I suspect it was more about doing something in the short term with the money all those personnel no longer needed to be paid and to hell with the long term consequences.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:10 am

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For the SL 2.0, I suppose it would make sense to hold out up to 300 SD but a whole bunch of "buts". First would be make those the newest/ most upgraded ships (latest Cataphracts etc) and use them in pre-positioned squadron groups as reaction forces pending internal problems with th SL or intrusions.
Yes, they are useless against GA forces but almost everyone else isn't going to send up again a squadron of 8 SD. That would give you 37 groups....(not counting ongoing needs to refit etc) in a polity of how many star systems?
For the most part, what is left of the SLN in the way of below-the-wall should be able to handle most of what may come up in the next 5 to 10 years. Again, if they don't look at taking on GA forces, they are on a par with many ships in the same classes. The area & numbers of systems that will need patrolling will have contracted. Those SL systems that already have warships can probably need less help as long as they don't get into the sort of open fighting (beyond diplomatic only squabbles) with their neighbors or attract too much interest from outside the SL.
What was FF will be coming back to the interior of the SL or spend time on it's boarder area.
One of the tricky parts will be moving out the bad (or now useless) officers and enlisted of the old FF who were in-bed with Trans-stellars or entangled with various system governments. And, then there are those who primarily still held positions/jobs because of the political networks- time to get them off the books.

Of course that raises the questions of what is going happen to the people who are going to be essentially tossed out out of the service. That is going to saturate several markets for people of shady morals and willingness to take questionable employment doing potentially illegal things, Oh Joy. Still, there will be jobs opening with systems inside, or in those who have newly left the League to establish their own SDF of whatever size.

It is possible that former SLN people of various skill sets could find legitimate employment in the expanding need for ship building and repair industries. A lot of this depends on the terms under which people exit the SLN service.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:15 pm

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Relax wrote:
kzt wrote:The decision to shut down all the SDs was, in a word, nuts. For example, the big punitive expeditions. Why not use the SDs for that and keep the BCs for things where you might actually be expected to fight?

It’s not like they needed the crews given that replacements were probably at least 5 years out.


The reason is not explicitly given in UH, but if one runs the numbers of operation duty SLN officers/men, it pencils out.

In UH, we are told SLN has 27,000,000 active duty personnel out of 155M. Those 2200+ SD's swallow up 16,500,000 personnel. We are also told they now have 4400 BC in service @2400/ship this equates to another 10.5M personnel. The eagle eyed among us have done the quick math and see that if one adds the SD+BC personell together this equates to having ZERO CA, CL, DD ships. Clearly this is not true.

What the other 155M-27M SLN personnel are doing on payroll makes one think they are actually ghosts. Rather their pay is going directly into the pockets of certain Admirals.

I wonder about how many of the statistics were actually on the up and up. Having so many mothballed ships on the book necessitated the need to have the personnel to maintain them. But the SLN's ships were all in a state of ill-repair. It is obvious that that budget and manpower were all a paper tiger. How many other paper tigers are there. A serious inventory need to be done before someone can get a handle on things.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:28 pm

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kzt wrote:The decision to shut down all the SDs was, in a word, nuts. For example, the big punitive expeditions. Why not use the SDs for that and keep the BCs for things where you might actually be expected to fight?

It’s not like they needed the crews given that replacements were probably at least 5 years out.

Punitive expeditions is about all they can do now. Honor's decree is like a pandemic with untold horrors of cause and effect. The SLN's many ships cannot be used for communication, running errands or friendly ports of call outside of the SL. That will limit the Navy's utility. Now they have to ask Mommy dearest for permission to exist. That alone is real fuel to resent their conquerers.

@ThinksMarkedly,

Yes, ThinksMarkedly, conquerers. Perhaps nice, good-natured, mildly mannered conquerers, but conquerers. Any navy who can force you at gunpoint to rewrite your entire Constitution are indeed conquerers.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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