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Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT

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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:50 pm

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cthia wrote:What does anyone suppose will happen if Manticore does not like the SL's new Constitution? What if the new Constitution includes provisions to right the imbalance in trade that the MBS causes?


Setting aside the discussion of just where those provisions would be codified, what provisions are you thinking of? How would the SL 2.0 "right an imbalance?"
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by tlb   » Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:32 pm

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cthia wrote:I don't think any government has any business meddling with the Constitution of any government.

The Solarian League surrendered to the Grand Alliance; the main term of that surrender was the writing of a new constitution acceptable to to victors. This is something that only happens after a surrender and there is ample precedent for it: including post WW2 Japan and Germany. Of course nobody likes it, because nobody likes to surrender; but that does not mean the resulting constitution will not find acceptance. The only substantial demands are the elimination of OFS and intrusions into the Verge. Indeed the resulting streamlining of the Navy and civilian oversight of the bureaucracy will probably be seen as good things.

Whether Manticore or Grayson would like it to happen to them is irrelevant. Of course they would not like it; but if they were defeated, then it could happen anyway.

I do not understand why you are even arguing about this. The simple facts are that there is a Solarian Convention that is writing a new constitution, this constitution is being writing because the Grand Alliance demanded it and the Grand Alliance has stipulated that the resulting constitution has to meet certain tests to be acceptable. Those facts are supported by the last two books: UH and TEiF.

PS: Why add anything about Communism to the post war writing of constitutions? The Allies were only interested in ending Nazism and militarism.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:29 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't think any government has any business meddling with the Constitution of any government.

The Solarian League surrendered to the Grand Alliance; the main term of that surrender was the writing of a new constitution acceptable to to victors.

I am not arguing that the term of the surrender to Honor was the writing of a new Constitution. I am arguing whether or not that SHOULD be the case. Unless Manticore and Honor can cause the whole of the SL to also rewrite its fully indoctrinated centuries long (c)onstitution, what has been gained? Regardless of what would have been forced to be written on paper by the Germans, unless Nazism is stamped out of the hearts and minds it is just a pipedream.


tlb wrote:This is something that only happens after a surrender and there is ample precedent for it: including post WW2 Japan and Germany.

Above.

tlb wrote:Of course nobody likes it, because nobody likes to surrender; but that does not mean the resulting constitution will not find acceptance. The only substantial demands are the elimination of OFS and intrusions into the Verge. Indeed the resulting streamlining of the Navy and civilian oversight of the bureaucracy will probably be seen as good things.

Whether the resulting Constitution is accepted by Manticore does nothing but pacify Honor and the Manticoran government if the SL's (c)onstitution - that which constitutes the whole of the SL's hearts and minds at its core - remains. This seems to be a sure fire way to stir up a hornet's nest and stoke the fire at its core. One of those things Honor was trying to avoid.

tlb wrote:Whether Manticore or Grayson would like it to happen to them is irrelevant. Of course they would not like it; but if they were defeated, then it could happen anyway.

Sure they wouldn't like it, but with Japan and Germany the hammer was much bigger than the nail and remained so. In this case, the nail is much bigger than the hammer, and the nail will surely become the hammer once again as it once was, so, unless the (c)onstitution has been rewritten as well, then the entire thing is simply an act of appeasement. Like unilateral disarmament (above ground.) :roll:

tlb wrote:I do not understand why you are even arguing about this. The simple facts are that there is a Solarian Convention that is writing a new constitution, this constitution is being writing because the Grand Alliance demanded it and the Grand Alliance has stipulated that the resulting constitution has to meet certain tests to be acceptable. Those facts are supported by the last two books: UH and TEiF.

PS: Why add anything about Communism to the post war writing of constitutions? The Allies were only interested in ending Nazism and militarism.

Again, I am not arguing what happened. I just don't think it makes any sense when the SL is so much larger, and when the Constitution can simply be rewritten yet again.

It is what is in the hearts and minds of the SL government and its citizens that count. And it seems to me that playing with fire by toying with something that will surely fuel resentment and stir revanchism is getting off to a bad start ...

When your enemy is so much more bigger than you are!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by tlb   » Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:54 am

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cthia wrote:I don't think any government has any business meddling with the Constitution of any government.

tlb wrote:The Solarian League surrendered to the Grand Alliance; the main term of that surrender was the writing of a new constitution acceptable to to victors.

cthia wrote:I am not arguing that the term of the surrender to Honor was the writing of a new Constitution. I am arguing whether or not that SHOULD be the case. Unless Manticore and Honor can cause the whole of the SL to also rewrite its fully indoctrinated centuries long (c)onstitution, what has been gained? Regardless of what would have been forced to be written on paper by the Germans, unless Nazism is stamped out of the hearts and minds it is just a pipedream.

It would have been so much simpler if you had said this from the start, but instead you wrote "Manticore does not have the right to meddle in the SL's Constitution. The war simply does not give Manticore that right. Victory gave them the right to meddle with their constitution, but not their Constitution.".

The problem with that statement is that it is much easier to force a change in the Constitution, than it is to force a change in beliefs. Fortunately that is not the problem here; the people of the Solarian League do not have a belief set that resulted in the exploitation of the Verge, that was only a result of the corrupt bureaucracy and the unregulated corporations. It was only those problems that the Convention was tasked to correct, so there is no reason to expect that the new constitution will be soon be rewritten or ignored.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:58 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't think any government has any business meddling with the Constitution of any government.

tlb wrote:The Solarian League surrendered to the Grand Alliance; the main term of that surrender was the writing of a new constitution acceptable to to victors.

cthia wrote:I am not arguing that the term of the surrender to Honor was the writing of a new Constitution. I am arguing whether or not that SHOULD be the case. Unless Manticore and Honor can cause the whole of the SL to also rewrite its fully indoctrinated centuries long (c)onstitution, what has been gained? Regardless of what would have been forced to be written on paper by the Germans, unless Nazism is stamped out of the hearts and minds it is just a pipedream.

It would have been so much simpler if you had said this from the start, but instead you wrote "Manticore does not have the right to meddle in the SL's Constitution. The war simply does not give Manticore that right. Victory gave them the right to meddle with their constitution, but not their Constitution."

The problem with that statement is that it is much easier to force a change in the Constitution, than it is to force a change in beliefs. Fortunately that is not the problem here; the people of the Solarian League do not have a belief set that resulted in the exploitation of the Verge, that was only a result of the corrupt bureaucracy and the unregulated corporations. It was only those problems that the Convention was tasked to correct, so there is no reason to expect that the new constitution will be soon be rewritten or ignored.

That may have been simpler to say, but it would not have accurately conveyed my meaning. I agree that it needed expounding, so I did.

However, I did not consider that my sentiments would be analyzed out of context. When I say that Manticore has no right to meddle in the SL's Constitution, I stand by it.

For instance, war does not give a victor the "right" to do as he pleases. War gives a victor the opportunity to take liberties, yes, but it does not give them a human right to do so.

War does not give a victor an unalienable right to steal a government's priceless heirlooms, yet they oftentimes do. We hear all of the time of how these priceless heirlooms have finally been returned to their rightful resting place after decades.

War does not give a victor the right to rape the women of the conquered, or perform any number of other common atrocities just because they can. Although it has been happening for centuries, civilized governments now ban together to set things right. And these governments call out such acts for what they are. War crimes.

Likewise, IMHO, war does not give a victor the "right" to meddle with another government's Constitution. The fact that it is done anyway does not make it "right" on any moral or human level.

No government will like its precious Constitution being "essentially" written by any foreign power; on that we seem to agree. But definitely not by a conquerer at gunpoint.

A victor has historically always gotten away with it by having enough weight in the britches to back it up. But if the smaller "nail" in those other britches becomes the hammer then he will likely nail your balls to the wall. So I personally don't recommend toying with an enemy's manhood if he will undoubtedly grow much bigger than you are and want to swallow you whole.

Constitutions are sacred and this is old Terra, the cradle of civilization. Is there anyone who does not imagine the initial discussion going on in Chambers being something like this ...

"WHO THE HELL DO THESE NEOBARBS THINK THEY ARE MEDDLING WITH OUR CONSTITUTION!"

It is their (c)onstitution that needs to be changed. I agree that that is a difficult task to accomplish. But summoning an enemy's demons by inciting the worst ingredients of his (c)onstitution by MEDDLING with his precious, longest lived Constitution doesn't sound like a very good plan to me. YMMV.

It is just not acceptable, and it won't be if something can be done about it down the road. War has always had the unspoken onus of civilized governments to handle victory, well, responsibly.

Constitutions are personal. Living with the knowledge that their precious Constitution was forced to be rewritten at gunpoint might be a constant source of aggrievement. One doesn't want another's aggrievements to become personal. That is what created many malignant war machines. That is how the MAlign was created.

At what point does constant aggrievements become its own toxic form of aggression? --Mark Olsen, Los Angeles Times, 1 App. 2022

The SL had to learn that the hard way. Will history repeat itself elsewhere in the Galaxy?

Honor's is the hand that rocked the Cradle of Civilization. We must be gentle when we rock the cradle, or the baby will wake up and protest very loudly out of annoyance. Perhaps Honor should have rocked the cradle more gently by using her biological hand instead.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by tlb   » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:49 pm

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If you want to believe that, then go ahead. However the books have made it clear that the prewar constitution of the Solarian League was deeply flawed and without a change to it, the government would continue as it was. If you believe this means trouble down the road, well you have been saying that about other decisions that you have questioned; do you really expect the author to write those scenarios into the story line?

In the case of the Solarian League, the new constitution will be one that they write; the specific demands of the Grand Alliance still leave much to be done by the convention. It turns out that once a constitution is written, it becomes very hard to change; because each article will have its defenders.

So you must also believe that the US was wrong to force a pacifist constitution onto militarist Japan. Yet it has been over 70 years and the Japanese do not seem to resent that constitution. Perhaps one day, you will be proven correct; until then I will continue to doubt it.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:08 pm

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tlb wrote:In the case of the Solarian League, the new constitution will be one that they write; the specific demands of the Grand Alliance still leave much to be done by the convention. It turns out that once a constitution is written, it becomes very hard to change; because each article will have its defenders.

So you must also believe that the US was wrong to force a pacifist constitution onto militarist Japan. Yet it has been over 70 years and the Japanese do not seem to resent that constitution. Perhaps one day, you will be proven correct; until then I will continue to doubt it.
Also - the demands the Grand Alliance made on the new Constitution are vastly less intrusive that what the Allies imposed on Germany and Japan after WWII.

They were:
a) "the Legislative Assembly of the Solarian League will immediately summon a constitutional convention to meet here, in the Sol System, to write a new constitution for the Solarian League"

b) It shall place "authority—and responsibility—in the hands of elected officials, not unelected bureaucrats governing by fiat and regulation." (And as such it "precludes the resurgence of the corrupt, venal, unaccountable oligarchy which plunged the galaxy into this bloodbath"

c) It shall "guarantee the right of any present member of the Solarian League to leave the League" (Which is only saying it must keep the exact right already enshrined in the existing Constitution's Article Thrity-Nine; and article that we're told 2/3rds of the original founding systems, including Sol, demanded the League Constitution contain before they'd ratify it.)

c.1) Though it shall add that the mechanism by which a member may choose to legally leave shall be "upon the vote of three quarters or more of its population"

d) It shall dissolve the Protectorates, and OFS -- the system of the League taking control of, and exploiting, territories around it's borders without the consent of their people.

And that's it.

Anything else: style of government, taxation, military, commerce and commercial regulation, human rights, etc. etc., the GA doesn't care about.


Sure, the current Mandarins are going to be pretty unhappy to get tossed out of their cushy (and lucrative) positions of power. But most League citizens see themselves first as citizen of their system and pretty much ignored the League government as it had negligible impact on their lives.

Even most of the people in the various League bureaucracies will probably continue their jobs more or less as normal; it doesn't really affect them that the few people at the top now have to report and be actually answerable to elected officials. The day to day work still needs to be done, and they're the people who know how to do it.


I just don't see demands to stop preying on your neighbors, give control of the government back into the direct oversight of elected officials, and to double down on your long standing right for any member system to leave the league, as the kind of meddling that could create a widespread public backlash.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by Somtaaw   » Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:55 pm

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Keep in mind, the Solarian LEAGUE and its bureaucrats weren't well thought of by members. Beowulf was one of the few members that actually sent effective Delegates to sit in the League's Assembly. Most other planets probably used the position of 'League Delegate' to park otherwise incompetent but politically connected idiots somewhere they otherwise couldn't do any harm. Examples would be Pavel Young being exiled to Basilisk station, or Honor being offered the Sidemore Station position to get her away from Manticore.

So the LEAGUE being forced to submit and change its Constitution, when 90% of members barely even felt the Manticoran trade blockades, and few lost anything to combat or SLN 'punishment raiders' are probably more ecstatic than pissed off.

Most of the Fringe or Frontier were absorbed extremely unwillingly and want nothing more to get out. Now they finally can and not have OFS/Gendarms/Frontier Fleet swooping down and blow their infrastructure away. Changing the Constitution to once more recognize succession is a RIGHT and not obsolete are going to be delighted to get the hell out and choose their own destinies again.


That leaves only the Core Worlds as the people who might be pissed at Manticore shattering the League, most of whom joined the League at, or very near, the beginning. Except now they can reform the 'new' League to actually be effective, so the vast majority are probably happy there too.


The only people who are going to be truly pissed... are the Civil Servants who are seeing their power drain away. But when the trials of the Mandarins happen, they're going to realize that suddenly being held accountable for their actions, it might actually be better to 'allow' elected officials to be installed and therefore take the blame.

Watch the comedy that was British televisions Yes Minister (or Yes Prime Minister), which is probably closer to a documentary of how Civil Servants use elected officials for cover as they frequently enact their own decisions instead.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:01 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:d) It shall dissolve the Protectorates, and OFS -- the system of the League taking control of, and exploiting, territories around it's borders without the consent of their people.


Quick note: though this was one of the requirements in the terms of surrender, this is not a constitutional requirement. The protectorates were, by definition, not members of the League. Any constitutional provision for offering protectorate status to a system is largely irrelevant and may even continue in the newly rewritten Constitution; what mattered was dismantling the system of oppression and exploitation, and freeing those system that were oppressed and exploited from those reins.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by kzt   » Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:10 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:what mattered was dismantling the system of oppression and exploitation, and freeing those system that were oppressed and exploited from those reins.

The SLN says, "Well, if that's really what you want us to do..." Opens the cargo door and pushes them out of the airplane. "Fly and be free!"
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