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Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT

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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:43 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:The ideas that the Constitution represents are supposed to reflect their [c]onstitution. That is my point.

At any rate, the MBS is now supposed to be the hub of the rule of galactic law? And the huge SL is simply supposed to accept that? I can't accept that no more than they will.

The faults in the previous constitution resulted in pillage and war crimes, did that represent the core beliefs of the citizens of the Solarian League?

Probably not. Or rather, I certainly hope not. Except, if "citizens of the Solarian League" is limited to select citizens of Old Chicago, then all bets are off. As it is here in the US, hopefully most people don't condone uninhibited violence, but usually accept that one has to bust a few eggs to make an omelette.

tlb wrote:The actions of the Solarian League cost/lost them the moral high ground. The Solarians do not have to accept that as a permanent result; they merely have to earn that position back.

They WON'T accept that as a permanent result. This is the collective bigotry of the huge Solarian League accepting galactic law being made in Neobarbaria. Reminds me of something my mother used to say to me on occasions. "Say that again very slowly, I want to see how you manage to get your lips to contort in such a fashion."

How else are they supposed to win it back other than making a few omelettes.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by tlb   » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:58 am

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tlb wrote:The actions of the Solarian League cost/lost them the moral high ground. The Solarians do not have to accept that as a permanent result; they merely have to earn that position back.

cthia wrote:They WON'T accept that as a permanent result. This is the collective bigotry of the huge Solarian League accepting galactic law being made in Neobarbaria. Reminds me of something my mother used to say to me on occasions. "Say that again very slowly, I want to see how you manage to get your lips to contort in such a fashion."

How else are they supposed to win it back other than making a few omelettes.

I think the key point is that it is still League representatives that are remaking the constitution and any "collective bigotry" will be overcome by the horror of the deaths of 40 millions on Beowulf and the Eridani violations committed by the League Navy (the prohibitions against such acts having been one of the core beliefs of all Solarian members).

They will not regain the moral high ground by repeating the actions that brought them into disrepute.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:55 pm

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cthia wrote:They WON'T accept that as a permanent result. This is the collective bigotry of the huge Solarian League accepting galactic law being made in Neobarbaria. Reminds me of something my mother used to say to me on occasions. "Say that again very slowly, I want to see how you manage to get your lips to contort in such a fashion."

How else are they supposed to win it back other than making a few omelettes.


Oh, I don't doubt that there will be a lot of people thinking like that and seeking to change back their perceived status, whether that perception is correct or not. Moreover, the simple fact of defeat will have turned some people against the GA who had not been bothered by the war at all.

The question is how much damage they can do.

Right now, not much. The SLN does not have the technological assets to do anything, even if it wanted to. It will take a minimum of 10 years to get anything close to what the GA had pre-Apollo, longer to get to parity as the GA kept improving. So those voices won't have much opportunity to act militarily. That leaves economic actions or asymmetric (read: terrorism).

Enter The Harrington Plan. The GA must keep friends with the SL 2.0, though less than the independent systems. If they manage to actually get the League back to economic prosperity and keep good relations with the leadership in Old Chicago, those voices calling for revanchsim are just the "fringe nuts." Asking to start a war that could upset the economic cart should rightfully be derided at that point.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:01 pm

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:The actions of the Solarian League cost/lost them the moral high ground. The Solarians do not have to accept that as a permanent result; they merely have to earn that position back.

cthia wrote:They WON'T accept that as a permanent result. This is the collective bigotry of the huge Solarian League accepting galactic law being made in Neobarbaria. Reminds me of something my mother used to say to me on occasions. "Say that again very slowly, I want to see how you manage to get your lips to contort in such a fashion."

How else are they supposed to win it back other than making a few omelettes.

I think the key point is that it is still League representatives that are remaking the constitution -snip-

Ok, League representatives will be remaking the Constitution. Whether or not these representatives will harbor their own collective bigotry (their true colors - their (c)onstitution)) remains to be seen. But I don't think that those people have ever been the problem. People like them drafted the Constitution before. The problem is the whole of the SL's (c)onstitution which is shared by the civilian population who gives birth to the men and women of the SLN. It is the people who will ultimately represent the SL with weapons of warfare who matter.


tlb wrote: -continued- and any "collective bigotry" will be overcome by the horror of the deaths of 40 millions on Beowulf and the Eridani violations committed by the League Navy (the prohibitions against such acts having been one of the core beliefs of all Solarian members).

No no no. If the people rewriting the Constitution need the deaths of Beowulf to overcome their collective bigotry, then it might be already lost. There shouldn't BE any collective bigotry of anyone tasked with rewriting the Constitution. (Good luck with that, btw).

But you are assuming that the deaths of Beowulf lay heavy on the minds of the people who count around Old Chicago. And that... will surely depend on how these people view Beowulf in the light of their treacherous and traitorous ways. Better be careful with the pot these people are picked out of. Remember, bigotry is a cancer that knows no borders, has no boundaries and ignores all barriers. Members of the SL will be bigots of their own SL. There will always be a club of the good 'ole boys. When it comes to rewriting the Constitution, I don't think a non-native of the SL will get the task. Hopefully it will be a mixture of all, but native people of Old Chicago will probably dominate the panel. "And why not, the core ideals of the SL should be inherent with the people who know the SL more intimately." And yatta, yatta, yatta, as it were.

tlb wrote:They will not regain the moral high ground by repeating the actions that brought them into disrepute.


Probably, or hopefully not? -shrug-

But don't put too much stock in it. I have always wanted the author to give us a glimpse into the SL when it was supposedly "pure" and rightfully... and correctly upholding the rule of galactic law. The enforcers of the Edict! I hear the SLN had to bust a few headsbonce upon a time, during the time they were NOT supposed to be corrupt. I'd like the details of that to read for myself. Did the people who violated the Edict truly deserve to be throttled? Did the punishment fit the crime?

And for God's sake what drove the people who the SLN had to punish to commit these atrocious acts of "shooting up public schools with AR-15's."

Take for instance when Honor visited Sol. Essentially Honor did what the SL once did. She busted a few heads for atrocious crimes such as committing EE violations.

Even so, Honor's acts of retribution were metered. Were the SL's throttlings of EE violators metered? The details on EEV violations can get very muddy. That is what Cachat and Zilwicki tried to prove. At any rate, at the end of the day, it is the Navy that carries the torch, and the sword.

And their (c)onstitution is what ultimately matters.

.
Last edited by cthia on Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by tlb   » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:31 pm

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I have said what I have wanted to say about this and do not see any reason to say more. Perhaps the author will write what you seem to want him to write, but I doubt it; I think he is more interested in wrapping up this story.

Over the years you have suggested various dire events that could come to pass. I have not expected any to appear in the books, because they did not fit my impression of the author's style. Not that my impressions are always correct, but neither of us have been great at projections.

So, we hope that we shall see as the series concludes.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:43 pm

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cthia wrote:But you are assuming that the deaths of Beowulf lay heavy on the minds of the people who count around Old Chicago. And that... will surely depend on how these people view Beowulf in the light of their treacherous and traitorous ways. Better be careful with the pot these people are picked out of. Remember, bigotry is a cancer that knows no borders, has no boundaries and ignores all barriers. Members of the SL will be bigots of their own SL. There will always be a club of the good 'ole boys. When it comes to rewriting the Constitution, I don't think a non-native of the SL will get the task. Hopefully it will be a mixture of all, but native people of Old Chicago will probably dominate the panel. "And why not, the core ideals of the SL should be inherent with the people who know the SL more intimately." And yatta, yatta, yatta, as it were.

I tend to doubt that. Sol didn't historically dominated the writing of the original constitution -- how could it, it was effectively prostrate as the result of its Final War. The League was basically formed by the nearby colonies as a result of having to first informally band together to help Earth's population recover from its self-inflicted wounds.

As far as I know each colony had a equal representation in drafting the constitution.

So there's no historical precident to claim they should have an outsized number of participants involved in drafting it.

And the now former government just proved it was utterly incompetent, with many of its highest members dead, jailed, or under investigation; so it's not going to be in a position to throw its weight around too heavily. Plus the new constitution is going to have to be ratified by each member system, so if Sol tries to be too heavy handed and force something that they feel violates their system sovereignty they'll refuse the ratify and leave.

Their citizens see themselves as citizen of the system first, and the League second; and the system governments are of similar mind. The League got corrupt not so much because it was powerful, but because internally it was weak and ignored as not seen as having any significant power or legal authority over the member systems. Who cares what kind of incompetent you send to Sol because the politicians that can impact your life of are the ones in the system government. So the League legislature all too often became a sinecure post, or a place to shuffle off someone too well connected to force out of politics but too incompetent to want around.
(Which just encouraged the various departments and their unelected heads, to ignore the Legislature and do whatever they liked)

(There are actually echoes of that back in the history of America. IIRC up until basically the Civil War the state governments were seen as far more important than the national one. IIRC there's a possibly apocryphal tale about when Andrew Jackson first ran for US Congress from Tennessee that some of of the folks voting for his said they were happy to have him as a Federal representative but wouldn't have voted for him for the more important Tennessee state legislature)

We'll see - but I think you're badly misreading the state of mind of both the people each member system will send to the convention to draft the new constitution and the average citizen of members of the League.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:35 am

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The only people in Old Chicago who 'hate' the Manties, are the League civil servants, the unelected administrators who truly ran the old League... and the dolists who ate up anything that the League's PubIn told them to think. You could very easily compared Malachai Abruzzi with Cordelia Ransom, both of whom relied on telling their dolists how to think of Manticore, and whipping up mob hysteria at anyone besides those in charge.


Although yes after Honor burned practically every single piece of space-tech within the Oort Cloud, just about everyone in Sol dislikes her.... overall the League itself barely even noticed things, and even the wormhole blockades were ultimately pretty low. That really only affected the League Federal government, as per the Mandarins own meetings, the local systems were able to alter their monthly operations and didn't change much.



Also keep in mind, that virtually all the 'senators' from the Echo chamber were almost certainly the sort of politically connected but incompetent fools who were sent to Earth from their respective systems to keep them out of trouble at home. Beowulf was one of the few, possibly one of the only, nations that sent competent politicians to represent them with the League. So the FIRST thing the representatives Honor requested to be sent to Earth from the various League members will do, will be to ignore 99% of what their original representative claims and investigate themselves, which is going to lead towards a far less anti-Manticore position in League 2.0.


Since the power is actually being returned to the ELECTED officials, I have a very hard time believing that many will be truly pissed with Manticore and writing a hostile Constitution. Those elected officials will be more interested in writing a Constitution for themselves/democracy, and enhancing relations with Manticore that allows them to return home victoriously claiming 'lower Junction fees' or other such things. All of which is also things that would only piss off Earth, and League_v1 bureaucrats who are going to resent the reduction/elimination of their personal power & influence.


Overall Earth, and those same resentful bureaucrats are going to be a very small fish in League 2.0, especially if they continue to spout anti-Manticoran rhetoric. All at a time when dozens of other systems are going to be delighted at FINALLY being able to leave the League, whether they willingly joined centuries ago before the League turned 'evil' or because they were dragged into the League through the illegal actions of OFS. Very very few, if any, other nations are going to willingly associate with Earth anymore and it honestly has better odds of becoming a 1-system entity because nobody else wants Sol to be part of their own smaller chunks in League 2.0
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by tlb   » Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:08 am

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Somtaaw wrote:All at a time when dozens of other systems are going to be delighted at FINALLY being able to leave the League, whether they willingly joined centuries ago before the League turned 'evil' or because they were dragged into the League through the illegal actions of OFS. Very very few, if any, other nations are going to willingly associate with Earth anymore and it honestly has better odds of becoming a 1-system entity because nobody else wants Sol to be part of their own smaller chunks in League 2.0

I have as much difficulty believing that as I did that there is going to be widespread anger at the new constitution. If you consider that the League was originally created as a Euro-zone written big, with a unified currency and defense force and common commercial laws; then there is every reason to believe that the new League will continue those practices, because of the benefits for everyone involved. Earth was not the problem, just the bureaucracy housed then; which because of flaws in the previous constitution found itself without oversight and able to fund itself, first legally and then by corrupt means.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:04 am

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tlb wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:All at a time when dozens of other systems are going to be delighted at FINALLY being able to leave the League, whether they willingly joined centuries ago before the League turned 'evil' or because they were dragged into the League through the illegal actions of OFS. Very very few, if any, other nations are going to willingly associate with Earth anymore and it honestly has better odds of becoming a 1-system entity because nobody else wants Sol to be part of their own smaller chunks in League 2.0

I have as much difficulty believing that as I did that there is going to be widespread anger at the new constitution. If you consider that the League was originally created as a Euro-zone written big, with a unified currency and defense force and common commercial laws; then there is every reason to believe that the new League will continue those practices, because of the benefits for everyone involved. Earth was not the problem, just the bureaucracy housed then; which because of flaws in the previous constitution found itself without oversight and able to fund itself, first legally and then by corrupt means.


I don't put good odds on it actually happening, but it is still a low probability situation, that really boils down to how how annoying they get about "making the League Great Again", or getting revenge on Manticore, and how often they keep trying to insert various laws into the new Constitution that enable bureaucrats to keep some/most of their power over/beside elected officials.

How likely would you keep a powertripping boss around that used to be part of your union until he got promoted above you, and then got fired for incompetence and negligence? Especially once he rejoined the general union and is now voting for things that might put him back into a position of power? You'll tell him off a few times, but if he keeps doing it, while also cornering various others trying to convince them to vote for him & his policies, eventually he's going to get kicked out right?

Same thing could happen here, Earth was still recovering from the Final War when they, Beowulf and others originally formed the League. They only got the position of main power because it's the true homeworld, and then they did nothing but reinforce Earth's position as 'first among equals' ever since. But now they're in the position above... they lost their position as leader, their prestige as first among equals, and if they keep being annoying about revanchist policies, they have a genuine possibility of being kicked out of their own club.


It has a zero percent chance of happening if they keep their head down and don't make waves resisting a reformed Constitution. But that in itself also means they won't be able to even try to get revenge for decades or longer, by which time much of the bureaucrat anger will have gone down and elected officials will (hopefully) have gotten a firm grasp of things.
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Re: Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:43 pm

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Why should anyone think that SLN 2.0 would/should get preferred rates at the Manticore Junction usage? Because the lost their undeclared war. Even if Manticore lifts Lacoon II restrictions - and we don't know the terms of that including if Harrington could have made an "acceptable to GA" clause for the demanded New Constitution. We don't have all the little details of the conversation with Kingsford.

The SL members most upset with the state of the SL prior to Harrington's arrival at Sol are the ones most likely to leave the league. So they will not be participating in the Constitutional Convention.

How many of the SL bureaucracy are going to face (and hopefully be convicted) of various crimes against AT LEAST THE SL, and both punished and never be allowed to hold such positions (elected or appointed) is an open question and one that will have significant impact on the functioning of the New Constitution.

Construction of a constitution what will have teeth to enforce the position of the ELECTED members of the government vs the unelected permanent staff/Secrataries will be interesting.

Putting teeth into CLEAR and EXPLICIT LAW to keep people from getting into the same old corrupt relationships. Enforcing those should keep a lot of people busy.
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