Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next

[Continued from the thread about tactics]

I don't think the RMN should keep any of its Reliants or Star Knights in service, or the GSN keep the Jason Alvarez or Hill classes.

We know that HMS Nike (BC-413) was recommissioned in 1919/1920 because it was still a very good ship, but that was a war-time condition. I also expect that the Reliants were refitted to fire ERMs for the second war with Haven, even though we haven't been explicitly told so. House of Steel tells us the Flight III and IV Reliants were built after 1915, with third generation compensators, and 6% more massive than the earlier ones. This tells me that there was considerable thought put into its update, at a time when ERMs and MDMs already existed. So I expect that, for peace time, the Flight III and IV Reliants to go back into mothballs for a short while and the Flight I and II that survived (including HMS Third Yeltsin) to simply be scrapped.

As for the Star Knights, I wouldn't have bothered with refitting at all. HMS Edward Saganami is from 1910, so I'd expect there to have been plenty of ERM-capable CAs for the front-lines against either Haven or the Solarian League. Patrolling the Talbott Sector / Quadrant was not a front-line activity in 1919-1920, until Monica happened. The fact that two of them were at Monica does not mean that they should be used to face the SLN, however good they are. And they are good, probably better than anything that the SLN had in stock for CAs, and were in fact used as a template for the Marksman class that Roszak ordered from Erewhon and the Carlucci Industries. They are just not good enough to keep in service.

The Fleet Strengths as of 1920 table says the RMN had 115 CAs with 30 more in reserve. And it also has this mysterious line with 3 CA (Large) in service (it also lists DN(P), but fortunately that's zeroed out for everyone). So what are CA(L)?

One option is that they denote ships over half a million tonnes and the only that comes to mind is the Mars-D from the PN. But it would be insane for the RMN to keep some of those in active service until 1920, if they had 30 of their own build in reserve. Even if the Mars-Ds were more powerful than a Prince Consort, I'd have kept the local builds than the foreign hardware.

The other option, which seems far-fetched but in my mind is the most likely, is that CA(L) represents the Saganami-C hulls. I don't know why RFC would have listed them as CA(L) at that time, since they are 483,000 tonnes, which isn't a lot more than the Mars-B (477, the last Mars for which we have definitive numbers) and only 15% more than the Saganami-B. Maybe at the time he sent that list he had planned on bumping them in size a lot, like he did for the Nikes and Rolands, but later changed his mind. If this is the case, then those 3 probably include HMS Hexapuma, which was one of the first C-subtype ships to be launched and that was in early 1920.

Moreover, HoS says that 149 Saganami-C were built between 1920 and "present" (late 1921, I think). We don't know how many more built between that date and when the yards were destroyed in February 1922 by the Oyster Bay attack. We don't know either how many were lost fighting the RHN, but I think none were lost fighting the SLN at all. Add to that the 46 Sag-A and 84 Sag-B that had been built, I'd say that the RMN is well-stocked for heavy cruisers for peace-time.

So no need to keep any Star Knight at all. Either sell them to allies strapped for cash and who can't buy a brand, new Marksman from Erewhon, or just scrap them.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The Fleet Strengths as of 1920 table says the RMN had 115 CAs with 30 more in reserve. And it also has this mysterious line with 3 CA (Large) in service (it also lists DN(P), but fortunately that's zeroed out for everyone). So what are CA(L)?

One option is that they denote ships over half a million tonnes and the only that comes to mind is the Mars-D from the PN. But it would be insane for the RMN to keep some of those in active service until 1920, if they had 30 of their own build in reserve. Even if the Mars-Ds were more powerful than a Prince Consort, I'd have kept the local builds than the foreign hardware.

The other option, which seems far-fetched but in my mind is the most likely, is that CA(L) represents the Saganami-C hulls. I don't know why RFC would have listed them as CA(L) at that time, since they are 483,000 tonnes, which isn't a lot more than the Mars-B (477, the last Mars for which we have definitive numbers) and only 15% more than the Saganami-B. Maybe at the time he sent that list he had planned on bumping them in size a lot, like he did for the Nikes and Rolands, but later changed his mind. If this is the case, then those 3 probably include HMS Hexapuma, which was one of the first C-subtype ships to be launched and that was in early 1920.

Moreover, HoS says that 149 Saganami-C were built between 1920 and "present" (late 1921, I think). We don't know how many more built between that date and when the yards were destroyed in February 1922 by the Oyster Bay attack. We don't know either how many were lost fighting the RHN, but I think none were lost fighting the SLN at all. Add to that the 46 Sag-A and 84 Sag-B that had been built, I'd say that the RMN is well-stocked for heavy cruisers for peace-time.

So no need to keep any Star Knight at all. Either sell them to allies strapped for cash and who can't buy a brand, new Marksman from Erewhon, or just scrap them.

Like you I'd have guessed CA(L) might be the first 3 Sag-Cs. Okay, they were only 14% bigger than the Sag-Bs of 3 years prior; but they're nearly 1/4 larger than any other RMN CA. And in terms of weapons fit they're along the lines of a (greatly) scaled down Nike-class BC(L) -- though crucially lacking the Keyhole platforms that make Nike so much more survivable. So it's entirely possible that, as both classes came into service in 1920, that they were being worked on together as a joint 'large future combatants for CA & BC' program. (It's also quite possible that at some stage the design studies that led to the Sag-C included some even larger designs)

Heck, if they didn't have to sneak them past Janacek and the conservative lords as a new Saganami variant they might well have been officially called something like Predator-class CA(L)s. But as 'officially' a modification of the Saganami-class CA's they probably couldn't get away with tacking an (L) on them even if they'd wanted to.


Still, I guess it isn't impossible that they made a handful of really large, say, 650,000 ton CAs and just ended up not moving forward with them and so we haven't (yet?) heard of them.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The Fleet Strengths as of 1920 table says the RMN had 115 CAs with 30 more in reserve. And it also has this mysterious line with 3 CA (Large) in service (it also lists DN(P), but fortunately that's zeroed out for everyone). So what are CA(L)?

One option is that they denote ships over half a million tonnes and the only that comes to mind is the Mars-D from the PN. But it would be insane for the RMN to keep some of those in active service until 1920, if they had 30 of their own build in reserve. Even if the Mars-Ds were more powerful than a Prince Consort, I'd have kept the local builds than the foreign hardware.

The other option, which seems far-fetched but in my mind is the most likely, is that CA(L) represents the Saganami-C hulls. I don't know why RFC would have listed them as CA(L) at that time, since they are 483,000 tonnes, which isn't a lot more than the Mars-B (477, the last Mars for which we have definitive numbers) and only 15% more than the Saganami-B. Maybe at the time he sent that list he had planned on bumping them in size a lot, like he did for the Nikes and Rolands, but later changed his mind. If this is the case, then those 3 probably include HMS Hexapuma, which was one of the first C-subtype ships to be launched and that was in early 1920.

It's almost both options. The 1920 table shows 120 CA(L)s for the RHN. Those must be their Mars-class. Oddly, 40 of those are in reserve - maybe the earlier flights with the unstable fusion reactor?

It might be a typo and these numbers are supposed to be for their regular CAs, as they have none at all.

Either way, you're very close with your half million ton threshold but the line seems to be at 450,000 tons. Of course, that means the 1920 table forgot the Graysons' four Marses...

Speaking of the Sag-C, isn't it well past time for the RMN to retroactively rename it? It's niggling at me that I don't know whether it should be the Hexapuma class or if a HMS Kodiak or something else commissioned before the nasty kitty.

Having an Exploring ship backtrack to pick up drones doesn't make a lot of sense. And it would be RDs, not torpedos...or attack missiles, or anything that needs to go extravagantly fast as the whole idea is to gather data, not zip past -screaming IM HERE, NOTICE ME. RDs....are able to go quite fast even in stealth with even minimal navigation propulsion but they excel at sucking up data through passive sensors.
Go back and visit a the last system or two you recently visited? Why? Do you expect the Ice Men of Mars to be off their guard and out soaking up....Martian dew? Anybody with an early warning system that would pick up a ship coming out of hyperspace a light-hour beyond the hyper limit is probably going to have a hard time hiding the fact they are an industrialized system from even the crew of Apollo II. There is going to be a LOT of electromagnetic noise.

It is possible that if someone (not only the Alignment is trying to say out of anyones notice for all sorts of reasons) notices a ship showing up at 1 light hour, they could put on an higher level of stealth for their operations but the alternative is they are going to try and kill the ship they spot. IF you have something like a Lenny Det as a system defense ship, they could sneak up an a GA warship but at one light hour a system like Darius would look like they put up a version of the HOLLYWOOD sign is strobes of every possible frequency of light and other EM radiation.

5 years is a long time to be out of contact- unless your a generational colony ship- and even reports of "it is a system with no habitation detected and no non-natural energy sources.....details in sub-section 6 of the enclosed report ..." will provide info.

Astro Control does a lot of things with wormholes besides regulating traffic. It monitors the termini (hopefully at both ends with a companion control there) and downloads all the readings of the ships that pass thrugh. Well, takes their reports. They are monitoring flucutations and changes plus building histories of what appears to be going on with the wormhole to provide the safest possible transits. Lots of variable. So, yeah, that info would be useful though a quified warship crew should be able to transit a know wormhole. But information can save your life and anybody forcing a transit agains the wishes of the local Astro Control would be well served to have historic data.....just like navigation data for harbors, currents, straights and other physical changes in a planetary ocean situation. Prevailing winds-seasonal, currents and tides, obstructions, Stuff.

munroburton wrote:Speaking of the Sag-C, isn't it well past time for the RMN to retroactively rename it? It's niggling at me that I don't know whether it should be the Hexapuma class or if a HMS Kodiak or something else commissioned before the nasty kitty.

I'd like it to be Hexapuma class, but I don't think it'll happen. Since the Hexapuma is now on the honour list, she could be the lead class of the new 650,000 tonne CA.

BTW, how in the Galaxy is an otter (HMS Otter) a predator?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

munroburton wrote:Speaking of the Sag-C, isn't it well past time for the RMN to retroactively rename it? It's niggling at me that I don't know whether it should be the Hexapuma class or if a HMS Kodiak or something else commissioned before the nasty kitty.

I'd like it to be Hexapuma class, but I don't think it'll happen. Since the Hexapuma is now on the honour list, she could be the lead class of the new 650,000 tonne CA.

BTW, how in the Galaxy is an otter (HMS Otter) a predator?

I live in an area with river and sea otters. They eat fish, and sea otters can catch and eat shellfish. Not sure if river otters catch live fish, but they definitely eat dead ones.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

munroburton wrote:Speaking of the Sag-C, isn't it well past time for the RMN to retroactively rename it? It's niggling at me that I don't know whether it should be the Hexapuma class or if a HMS Kodiak or something else commissioned before the nasty kitty.

I'd like it to be Hexapuma class, but I don't think it'll happen. Since the Hexapuma is now on the honour list, she could be the lead class of the new 650,000 tonne CA.

BTW, how in the Galaxy is an otter (HMS Otter) a predator?

They're hardly an apex predator, but they do catch and eat fish; so they are a predator. Of course by that logic we might end up with an HMS Tuna

However if the the wiki is to be believed on the names we've got a few different apparent naming schemes going on within the Sag-Cs.

Predators:
Cheetah, Hexapuma, Otter, Smilodon, Tiger Cub, Wolf

People:
Alistair McKeon, Bristol Q. Yakolev, Clas Fleming, Jessica Rice, Lisa Holtz, Madelyn Hoffman, Malcolm Taylor, Marconi Williams, Peregrine S. Faye, Quentin Saint-James, Sloan Tompkins

Too few examples to categorize: (Possible some are ships of honor, or otherwise named for previous/famous ships)
Canopus, Onyx, Slipstream, Trebuchet

Fox2! wrote:
IIRC. aren't the Kammerlings based on a CL hull? Even with the Marine Country converted into workshops, rec areas, additional stowage for crew consumables, etc., they would be too small for the mission.

They are called a CL, but they fall into the old CA mass range at 240k tons iirc. This is about the same as a Prince Consort CA. I believe the only reason they are CLs is they fire DD/CL munitions (Mk36 LERM), not the Mk15 ERM or the Mk16 DDM.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:[Continued from the thread about tactics]

I don't think the RMN should keep any of its Reliants or Star Knights in service, or the GSN keep the Jason Alvarez or Hill classes.

We know that HMS Nike (BC-413) was recommissioned in 1919/1920 because it was still a very good ship, but that was a war-time condition. I also expect that the Reliants were refitted to fire ERMs for the second war with Haven, even though we haven't been explicitly told so. House of Steel tells us the Flight III and IV Reliants were built after 1915, with third generation compensators, and 6% more massive than the earlier ones. This tells me that there was considerable thought put into its update, at a time when ERMs and MDMs already existed. So I expect that, for peace time, the Flight III and IV Reliants to go back into mothballs for a short while and the Flight I and II that survived (including HMS Third Yeltsin) to simply be scrapped.

As for the Star Knights, I wouldn't have bothered with refitting at all. HMS Edward Saganami is from 1910, so I'd expect there to have been plenty of ERM-capable CAs for the front-lines against either Haven or the Solarian League. Patrolling the Talbott Sector / Quadrant was not a front-line activity in 1919-1920, until Monica happened. The fact that two of them were at Monica does not mean that they should be used to face the SLN, however good they are. And they are good, probably better than anything that the SLN had in stock for CAs, and were in fact used as a template for the Marksman class that Roszak ordered from Erewhon and the Carlucci Industries. They are just not good enough to keep in service.

The Fleet Strengths as of 1920 table says the RMN had 115 CAs with 30 more in reserve. And it also has this mysterious line with 3 CA (Large) in service (it also lists DN(P), but fortunately that's zeroed out for everyone). So what are CA(L)?

One option is that they denote ships over half a million tonnes and the only that comes to mind is the Mars-D from the PN. But it would be insane for the RMN to keep some of those in active service until 1920, if they had 30 of their own build in reserve. Even if the Mars-Ds were more powerful than a Prince Consort, I'd have kept the local builds than the foreign hardware.

The other option, which seems far-fetched but in my mind is the most likely, is that CA(L) represents the Saganami-C hulls. I don't know why RFC would have listed them as CA(L) at that time, since they are 483,000 tonnes, which isn't a lot more than the Mars-B (477, the last Mars for which we have definitive numbers) and only 15% more than the Saganami-B. Maybe at the time he sent that list he had planned on bumping them in size a lot, like he did for the Nikes and Rolands, but later changed his mind. If this is the case, then those 3 probably include HMS Hexapuma, which was one of the first C-subtype ships to be launched and that was in early 1920.

Moreover, HoS says that 149 Saganami-C were built between 1920 and "present" (late 1921, I think). We don't know how many more built between that date and when the yards were destroyed in February 1922 by the Oyster Bay attack. We don't know either how many were lost fighting the RHN, but I think none were lost fighting the SLN at all. Add to that the 46 Sag-A and 84 Sag-B that had been built, I'd say that the RMN is well-stocked for heavy cruisers for peace-time.

So no need to keep any Star Knight at all. Either sell them to allies strapped for cash and who can't buy a brand, new Marksman from Erewhon, or just scrap them.

David did say at the time the RMN CA(L) is the Sag-C. That has never been in contention. The RHN CA(L) are the Mars A-D variants.

The Sag-A is an SDM cruiser. Trash them with the Star Knights.

Jonathan_S wrote:Predators:
Cheetah, Hexapuma, Otter, Smilodon, Tiger Cub, Wolf

People:
Alistair McKeon, Bristol Q. Yakolev, Clas Fleming, Jessica Rice, Lisa Holtz, Madelyn Hoffman, Malcolm Taylor, Marconi Williams, Peregrine S. Faye, Quentin Saint-James, Sloan Tompkins

Too few examples to categorize: (Possible some are ships of honor, or otherwise named for previous/famous ships)
Canopus, Onyx, Slipstream, Trebuchet

When we're introduced to HMS Hexapuma, it's stated that they had decided to name the Sag-C after predators. That really underscores the fact that they should have been a separate class all along: the Navy had a list of names ready to go for it.

But then they came back to naming them after people. The Quentin Saint-James Sag-C was actually the second Saganami to be named after Jimmy Boy. This brings me to a question I've been meaning to ask for a while: who was Jessica Epps? Can we see her in the next Manticore Ascendant book?

As for the odd ones out... maybe there's an animal somewhere named slipstream? Considering scientists let a 13-year-old name the treecats, I wouldn't put it beyond the realm of possibility.

BTW, can you imagine what the constellations are named after in most planets? I'm sure The Batman is on the sky in more than half the settled planets.