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Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next

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Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Theemile   » Tue May 17, 2022 4:00 pm

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If I have my timeline correct, Galton fell in the fall of 1924.

You are the head of Buships of the RMN - The first Building slips are being completed and handed to you. LACs are starting to roll out their new factories and are being set around the empire to augment defenses. Knowing what the RMN believes it knows as of the Fall of Galton in 1924, What ship design would you build next?

Assume that the Admiralty has decided to build a single design initially to prove their yards and new workforce. That design will be a current, proven design, or a slight modification of the above (Like War production Sag-C CAs had 12 emitter PDLCs instead of the standard CA 8 emitter units used in the initial pre-war Sag-C design.) Such a change can't change a ship more than 1-2% and only use proven tech.

What design would you build, why? and what slight changes would you make?

Being Grayson Dept. of Construction, what ship would you build? (Manty ships are available for consideration as well). why? any Changes?

As the Beowulf Naval Construction group, what advanced ship would you build to get your feet fully into Manticorian build tech and practices and update the fleet? Why? And what specific changes might the BSDF require?
Last edited by Theemile on Tue May 17, 2022 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by kzt   » Tue May 17, 2022 4:35 pm

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Repair ships, fabrication nodes, and more construction slips.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Theemile   » Tue May 17, 2022 4:48 pm

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kzt wrote:Repair ships, fabrication nodes, and more construction slips.


OK, assuming that the construction is ongoing, but a critical phase has been passed where ship construction can be supported in addition to ongoing station construction.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue May 17, 2022 5:40 pm

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Hard to say, it depends on what they see as their highest priority. And this assumes that RMN's replacement yards are now coming online and they don't need to focus on repair and construction ships.


One question is how did the residential and light industrial stations destroyed at Beowulf affect the plans to produce new alliance SD(P)s via building at Bolthole and fitting out at Beowulf? Was Manticore expecting to further increase it's SD(P) fleet with inclusion of those or did the python lump get it to the desired numbers in that ship type?

If they see major war with the MAlign as imminent they'll probably continue to prioritize SD(P)s and CLACs over lighter ships. (And possibly come out with a 3rd gen SD(P) design based on lessons learned with the Invictus-class compared to the Harrington IIs). But if they see this as an indefinite but probably multi-year pause while they continue to search for clue leading towards the remaining MAlign then they'll probably focus on light combatants for a while.

In a lot of ways their destroyers and light cruisers are in most need of new designs. They've got a mix of basically left-over pre-war hulls which are too manpower heavy and not optimized for the kind of missile environment even a DD might stumble into, and the modern one (Rolands, Wolfhounds, Avalons) which optimized for high intensity combat to the extent it significantly compromised their ability to do their other roles like peacetime patrolling. Roles which the RMN will likely need to undertake to an even greater degree now given their expanded empire.

Now, on the one hand, Silesia's situation is utterly different and shouldn't need the kind of patrolling and convoying that it did as a semi-failed state. But on the other hand they've got a lot of new systems in the Empire that aren't yet well provided for local defense and quite possibly a rash of new piracy along the League's borders -- where its ships are forbidden to go. So that might cause them to disperse DDs and CLs even wider to attempt to secure safe transit of their trade though those newly risky areas.

I think they'd get good work out of designs that were somewhat more automated than the pre-war designs, set up with defenses for modern missile combat and equipped with (likely) LERMs. (Mk16s are tricky and require a Roland-style compromise; plus their larger size lets you carry fewer and that impacts your patrol endurance), but with the ability to attach extra crew and marines when assigned to long range patrol where they might be needed for boarding parties or as prize crew for captured, impounded, or recovered ships. Then build enough to retire all your legacy pre-war DD and CL ships, and probably to push many of your Rolands and Wolfhounds (if maybe not Avalons) into reserve status.

Heavy cruisers they seem okay for the moment with the Sag-C design. The next step in CAs is probably a defense only 'keyhole light' platform -- something that carries the shorter ranged CM links and PDLCs allowing the ships to perform missile defense while rolled and multiple their CM salvos by mostly avoiding 'gunsmoke' effects. But that's probably a bigger more expensive ship and might not be the one to start with as the need doesn't seem as great.

BCs again the Nike seems currently world class and so I don't see an immediate need for a new design; though they may need to restart production to allow them to retire any SDM equipped BCs still in service. And while the BC(P)s in many ways aren't up to a Nike's standard I don't see a need to rush to replace them.


But that's just my thoughts.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Dauntless   » Wed May 18, 2022 9:39 am

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I'd say Jonathan_S is on the right path.

when testing new shipyards small ships are always a more practical choice due to time and cost.

the need to replace the pre war light units which are really showing their age is big, a need that is complicated by the stripped to bone warfighters like the Roland. House of steel doesn't actually give much info on the Avalon beyond that it uses LERMs and was in many ways a scaled down Sag-C.

Manticore has always preferred to use frigates and CLs for patrol but due to the need to build so many SDs often used destroyers. also there is a certain amount of debate as how well the DD as a type still holds up in the era of DDM and MDM. Roland's and wolfhound's didn't do badly but almost all their combat time was up against sollies, and not sollies with top line missiles, or Sillies which are unlikely to have been a much greater challenge.

So first design? a slightly tweeked Avalon that carries a company of marines like the old days, (OBS) and maybe a smidgen less automation (giving more people for boarding parties, prize crews etc) now that stretching personnel to cover as many ships as possible is no longer quite so key.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed May 18, 2022 10:53 am

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Dauntless wrote:I'd say Jonathan_S is on the right path.

when testing new shipyards small ships are always a more practical choice due to time and cost.

the need to replace the pre war light units which are really showing their age is big, a need that is complicated by the stripped to bone warfighters like the Roland. House of steel doesn't actually give much info on the Avalon beyond that it uses LERMs and was in many ways a scaled down Sag-C.

Manticore has always preferred to use frigates and CLs for patrol but due to the need to build so many SDs often used destroyers. also there is a certain amount of debate as how well the DD as a type still holds up in the era of DDM and MDM. Roland's and wolfhound's didn't do badly but almost all their combat time was up against sollies, and not sollies with top line missiles, or Sillies which are unlikely to have been a much greater challenge.

Historically you're correct that Manticore tended to deploy frigates and light cruisers for long range patrols -- but I think technology had caused that to change in a couple ways by the second half of the 1800s.


If you go back far enough you had frigates, destroyers, and light cruisers as basically three points on a notional 3-axis graph of range, firepower, and cost. A light cruiser gave you both range and firepower, but cost a lot more than the other options. A destroyer gave you most of the firepower of a CL, with a bit less depth of magazine, but was short legged as its cost saving tradeoff. And a frigate gave you the range of a CL but compromised heavily on firepower to get its lower cost.

However, it's my assertion that as the minimum viable size of destroyers got pushed higher to remain combat effective in the face of evolving threats (like laserheads) the range of destroyers could start rising significantly as a byproduct. After all if your hull size is growing, dictated by the things you need to cram onto its surface, the cube square law means you're gaining interior volume (which you could use for fuel tanks, storage, etc.) much more quickly.

Compare an 1819 Noblesse-class destroyer (68,250 tons) to an 1861 Havoc-class (84,500 tons) or 1883 Javelin (87,250 tons).
Or see the similar rise is light cruiser displacement (where they already had plenty of range), with the 1820 Courageous-class (88,250 tons) is barely larger than a DD of 60 years later; while by 1871 CLs had grown to the Illustrious-class (135,750).
We don't have specs on any RMN frigates, but the one we do have from Silesia (who tends to build oversized ships to compensate for their lower tech level) is an 1868 design of just 53,500 tons.

So basically I think that by the 1860s or 70s at the latest the minimum viable size for a new destroyer could have more than adequate range for any reasonable patrol; and you no longer had to use only long range optimized types like frigates (which weren't survivable anymore anyway) or light cruisers.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Fox2!   » Wed May 18, 2022 1:33 pm

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Dauntless wrote:I'd say Jonathan_S is on the right path.

when testing new shipyards small ships are always a more practical choice due to time and cost.

the need to replace the pre war light units which are really showing their age is big, a need that is complicated by the stripped to bone warfighters like the Roland. House of steel doesn't actually give much info on the Avalon beyond that it uses LERMs and was in many ways a scaled down Sag-C.

Manticore has always preferred to use frigates and CLs for patrol but due to the need to build so many SDs often used destroyers. also there is a certain amount of debate as how well the DD as a type still holds up in the era of DDM and MDM. Roland's and wolfhound's didn't do badly but almost all their combat time was up against sollies, and not sollies with top line missiles, or Sillies which are unlikely to have been a much greater challenge.

So first design? a slightly tweeked Avalon that carries a company of marines like the old days, (OBS) and maybe a smidgen less automation (giving more people for boarding parties, prize crews etc) now that stretching personnel to cover as many ships as possible is no longer quite so key.


What are the minimum weapons sets required for patrol, peacekeeping, anti-piracy, convoy escort. disaster relief? If the Saganami-C class CA is the smallest hull that can carry Mk-16s (other than the severely compromised Roland/Paul classes), is there still a role for DD/CL types? Are extended-endurance SDMs (e.g., LERMs) still viable against peer competitors? Against "lost" SLN ships now in the hands of warlords and pirates? When does the Renaissance Factor become a competitor? Are they even on ONI/SIS's radar as a potential threat? What other potential competitors are there?

Do Erehwon and Maya continue to present as friends, or are they potential rivals? Yes, they are cooperating with Manticore in cleaning up the residue of Firebrand and his associates stirring up insurrections with false flag promises of Manticoran support. They have the only known Navy with pod layers outside of the GA (Unless the MAN showed SD(P)s at Galton).

Is the SLN going to have limitations on types and numbers of ships imposed by the GA, or by the new government? What is their mission mix going to be? There are going to be a lot of unemployed Battle Fleet officers and ratings. How many will be incorporated into the growing Frontier Fleet (yes, I know the the BF/FF distinction is not going to continue; FF will essentially become the SLN).

And most importantly, how long will it take for the GA to recognize that the MA still has "A System That Must Be Protected" beyond Galton?
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Dauntless   » Wed May 18, 2022 1:50 pm

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You make some very interesting points Jonathan.

Manticore has always had firm ideas about roles for ships, hence why a Roland with 40K on a Avalon is called a DD. traditionally when not subbing in for CLs it was used for scouting and perimeter anti missile work for the Wall of Battle, jobs that nowadays would more likely be given to LACs (though yes the flexibility of a scout that can travel to another system under its own power is a benefit hard to give up).

I'm honestly not sure what a DD would be used for nowadays, general patrol/anti piracy is all that is left of the traditional roles and that was a needs must situation as you pointed out.

Both Rolands and Wolfhounds could be made to do the job, the problem with using DDs is no longer in endurance/fuel/supplies but I think the Rolands would struggle the most being the stripped to the bone warfighter design, without the greater flexibility of its smaller brother. The Wolfhound is only slightly smaller then the Avalon but from the House of steel description it suffers from the same big problem as the Roland. Manpower. Both designs run VERY lean, as the RMN continued to want vastly smaller crews compared to the pre-war designs. also no marines, though this could probably be fixed with only a little tweaking of the base design.

Hopefully with the need to build quite so many SDs largely reduced funds for CLs the RMN preferred for patrol are not so restricted. DDs (probably Wolfhonds) can be made to do the job but Avalons are doing it now and new Avalon builds without mods would give good data on how the new shipyards measure up to the old.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Dauntless   » Wed May 18, 2022 2:05 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
What are the minimum weapons sets required for patrol, peacekeeping, anti-piracy, convoy escort. disaster relief? If the Saganami-C class CA is the smallest hull that can carry Mk-16s (other than the severely compromised Roland/Paul classes), is there still a role for DD/CL types? Are extended-endurance SDMs (e.g., LERMs) still viable against peer competitors? Against "lost" SLN ships now in the hands of warlords and pirates? When does the Renaissance Factor become a competitor? Are they even on ONI/SIS's radar as a potential threat? What other potential competitors are there?

Do Erehwon and Maya continue to present as friends, or are they potential rivals? Yes, they are cooperating with Manticore in cleaning up the residue of Firebrand and his associates stirring up insurrections with false flag promises of Manticoran support. They have the only known Navy with pod layers outside of the GA (Unless the MAN showed SD(P)s at Galton).

Is the SLN going to have limitations on types and numbers of ships imposed by the GA, or by the new government? What is their mission mix going to be? There are going to be a lot of unemployed Battle Fleet officers and ratings. How many will be incorporated into the growing Frontier Fleet (yes, I know the the BF/FF distinction is not going to continue; FF will essentially become the SLN).

And most importantly, how long will it take for the GA to recognize that the MA still has "A System That Must Be Protected" beyond Galton?


excellent questions Fox2.

I would say the Role of a CL (a small (depending upon your definition of small) ship to do general patrol/basic anti pirate work) will likely always be needed , but the weapons fit and how much capability/flexibility you want will dictate size.

it could be that he RMN/GA will decide that a 150K and ERM is not enough and want something bigger, tougher etc maybe redesignate the Sag C as a CL and build a new CA design maybe around a 1Mt with a pared down keyhole unit.

Personally that sounds good to me but is something I would expect to be a little further down the road. With the ships yards just coming online I'd expect known designs with maybe a few small changes at first. CLs aren't a perfect choice but say 20 of them as a test followed by CAs, probably Sag-C. The point is to test the yards and expand the light units which have been ignored for so long.

New designs once they have had time to absorb the lessons from Galton and investigate possible new threats, would be reasonable but again that is for a little further down the road.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed May 18, 2022 3:44 pm

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Fox2! wrote:What are the minimum weapons sets required for patrol, peacekeeping, anti-piracy, convoy escort. disaster relief? If the Saganami-C class CA is the smallest hull that can carry Mk-16s (other than the severely compromised Roland/Paul classes), is there still a role for DD/CL types? Are extended-endurance SDMs (e.g., LERMs) still viable against peer competitors? Against "lost" SLN ships now in the hands of warlords and pirates? When does the Renaissance Factor become a competitor? Are they even on ONI/SIS's radar as a potential threat? What other potential competitors are there?
tl;dr - I think there's still a purpose for them and that ERMs are sufficient for the moment.


Right now we've got 5 rough types of missiles.
* SDM - your classic 60/180 second 7-8 million km single drive missile.
* ERM - at least 75/225 second 11-12 million km single drive missile (though I'm not entirely convinced that the RMN hasn't managed to push up to an even better endurance on their ERMs - the CA Jessica Epps was engaging at some very long ranges and must have been carrying ERMs)
* DDM - your mark 16 dual drive, 2x 60/180 second 29 million km continuous powered range.
* Cataphract - dual stage, oversized, 180+75 second - and depending on which generation between 16 and 27 million km continuous powered range. (With the later apparently being an even more oversized version of the pod-launch only Cataphract-C; down to only 6 per pod)
* MDM - like the Mk41 and Mk23, 3x 60/180 second 65 million km continuous powered range.

The smallest SLN that can tube launch a cataphract is should be their CAs (though we've only seen it carried by their BCs) as "the League's battlecruisers and heavy cruisers" [ToF] are both designed to carry the same Javelin missile.
(Then of course their SDs can carry the larger Cataphract-B designed around said CA/BC grade Javelin missile/warhead.
And the Cataphract-C designed around the Trebuchet capital missile can only be carried in pods)
The cataphract is special in that it is, so far as we know, the only post-SDM design that is backwards compatible -- being built (with some significant limitations) to be fired out of the legacy missile tubes. All the others types require, at minimum, significant yard time to rip out the existing tubes, magazines, etc. and make room to install ones designed around physically larger missiles.



Anyway, right now, a DD/CL with ERMs would significantly outrange any League designed DD/CL. And nobody seems close to cracking a DDM/Cataphract scaled for a DD/CL -- so getting more range, for the foreseeable future, requires building ships that somehow squeeze in the larger CA/BC sized missiles/tubes -- so essentially a Roland-style compromise.

Question is would the League go the more balanced ERM route for a new DD/CL design, or would they aim for the range advantage and build compromised designs that squeeze in those bigger tubes -- and so can handle Cataphract-As? And there's been no indication that Erewhon (who is also supplying Maya it's ships and weapons) has even developed a DDM at all; though we know there were working on an MDM for their podlayers and already have ERMs. So my bet would be on their DD/CL designs staying ERM at the moment.


Normally DDs/CLs aren't designed with the intent of fighting it out against CAs/BCs; so while potentially being outranged by them is far from ideal it shouldn't be an instant dealbreaker.
So, for now, keeping with ERMs should keep RMN ships at least on par with anybody in their weight class; but at an even larger than historic disadvantage against the most modern heavy or battlecruisers. And that's probably good enough for now.

(And if you know they might need long range punch you could also attach some Rolands, or provide DDM/MDM pods for them)
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