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Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next

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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by munroburton   » Sat May 21, 2022 5:13 am

munroburton
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kzt wrote:Well, you know, this is the SLN that can just say no. 'Sorry, that isn't part of our mission any more, so we are no longer budgeted for that kind of deployment.'


They don't seem to be saying no. The section of textev in TEiF is several pages long and there are all sorts of interesting tidbits in it.

“Actually, it’s a proposal.”
“What I was afraid of.” Kingsford sighed again. “So what is it?”
“I want your permission to get in touch with Montaigne—it will be done discreetly—and see if I can get her to agree for the Anti-Slavery League to start working—again, discreetly—with the Navy.”
The admiral’s eyes widened.
“Working with us on what?”
“Rooting out the slave trade—the whole apparatus involved with it, not just the slave ships and depots.”
<snip>
“And you’d be right,” Gannon agreed. “Unfortunately, the police agency that ought to be doing it, especially in the Shell and the Verge, where it’s most deeply encysted, used to be called the Office of Frontier Security. Which, you may recall, is in the process of disbandment as one of the Grand Alliance’s surrender demands. Not that it’ll make that much difference. Too much of OFS was in bed with the slavers to begin with.”
“The Gendarmerie—”
“The Gendarmerie is undoubtedly going to wind up with final responsibility for this, and Attorney General Rorendaal hates the trade as much as I do.” Gannon said. “She’s going to push hard to convince Prime Minister Yon to officially instruct the Navy to begin applying the equipment clause. But as far as the Gendarmerie is concerned, Gaddis is up to his ass in alligators cleaning house right here on Old Terra. It’s going to be a while before he’s able to start culling out the bad apples in the Gendarmes who were assigned to work with OFS. Or on most of the Verge worlds, for that matter.”
“We can’t just start crosscutting jurisdictional lines,” Kingsford objected. “The entire League’s in a state of flux right now. Gaddis and I are agreed that the last thing we can afford right now is to even look like we’re getting into some sort of turf war. Having the military and the police at odds—or even looking like they’re at odds—isn’t going to engender a lot of confidence in the Provisional Assembly or the Constitutional Convention.”
“I’m not proposing anything of the sort,” Gannon said patiently. “For this to work, it would have to be a cooperative effort with the Gendarmerie, as well. In fact, I’ve already, um, discussed certain hypothetical concerns with Brigadier Gaddis.”
<snip>
“I can follow all that, but you still haven’t explained why the Navy should do it. Oh, I’ll grant that the slave trade is vile. That it’s a cancer that corrupts and poisons everything it touches. Hell, I’ll go further. Somebody needs to stomp on it, and stomp on it hard. But for Christ’s sake, Chuck!”
He shook his head, his expression like iron.
“You know better than almost anybody how many millions of men and women the Navy just lost. But in case you haven’t been thinking about that, let me put it into perspective for you. Our total casualties amount to almost thirty-two percent of Battle Fleet’s prewar standing strength. Thirty-two percent, Chuck. There’s not a single serving officer or rating who didn’t lose someone they knew. And every one of our surviving capital ships is completely obsolete, every one of our surviving officers and ratings knows we got our clock cleaned every single time we went up against the Grand Alliance, and every single one of them knows we surrendered the capital system of the League—hell, the entire League itself—without firing a single shot at Harrington! You say Gaddis has his hands full repairing and rebuilding the Gendarmerie? What the hell do you think I’m doing? I’ve got way too much on my plate to be looking for additional missions!”
Gannon looked back at him levelly for several seconds. Then—
“Winston, the biggest thing—by far—that the Solarian League Navy has on its plate is rebuilding itself without doing it around a revanchist spinal cord. You’re right about how brutally we got hammered. Mostly because of stupid fucking admirals and even stupider politicians who couldn’t pour piss out of a boot, maybe, but you’re right. We lost damned near a third of Battle Fleet’s peacetime strength. And how many of the people we didn’t lose, do you think, are happy about that? How many of them are sitting around thinking about the next time they go up against the Grand Alliance…this time with matching tech. Hell, they’d be more than human if they weren’t thinking exactly that!
“But we can’t afford for them to think anything of the sort. You’re just as worried about that as I am—we’ve talked about it Winston, a lot. We want the war with the Grand Alliance to be over. Done. Finished—for good and ever. The last thing we want is to just put it back on a shelf until the Navy’s got the equipment to fire it back up and rip the human race apart all over again. This time on a scale I don’t even want to think about!”
“Of course that’s the last thing we want,” Kingsford said just a bit testily. “That’s why I’m about to sign off on Willis’s force restructuring!”
<snip>
Completely disbanding Battle Fleet would probably evoke the loudest screams…at least from Battle Fleet’s existing hierarchy, Gannon thought. But Battle Fleet had to go. Jennings was absolutely on target with that. The SLN’s formal division into Frontier Fleet, charged with executing the Navy’s day-to-day duties and discharging its routine responsibilities, and Battle Fleet, charged with actually fighting any wars that came along, had been disastrous, Frontier Fleet had been badly enough tainted in the public’s eyes (and its own, if the truth be known) by the way in which it had been sucked into supporting the Office of Frontier Security’s corruption, but at least it had been steadily and fully engaged in doing things. Battle Fleet hadn’t. It had been a black hole down which funding poured every fiscal year, but it hadn’t had anyone to fight, and so it had stagnated. Its capital ships had served no function at all, except to fight battles, and the battles had never come.
<snip>
So what Jennings had proposed was that Battle Fleet simply be abolished and the Navy’s total focus folded over into what had been Frontier Fleet. Frontier Fleet would also be abolished, as a separate organizational niche. Instead, there would simply be the Solarian League Navy, restructured to be what it should have been all along: a single, unified force and command structure serving the League’s actual needs.
The abolition of both the Office of Frontier Security and its system of protectorates—there was a lot of abolishing going on, just at the moment, Gannon reflected—would simplify those needs enormously. It would also allow the Navy to step away from its distasteful role as OFS’s enforcer when it came time to intimidate—or crush—opposition to Frontier Security and its cronies in the Protectorates. What would remain would be the problems OFS had been intended to address when it was first created: peacekeeping on the peripheries, search and rescue, enforcement of interstellar law, and the maintenance of an effective and modern combat capability sufficient to dissuade any realistic external threat to the League.
So every single existing Solarian ship-of-the-wall was destined for the breakers and reclamation. Battle Fleet’s basing infrastructure would be hugely reduced—indeed, virtually eliminated—and what was retained would be repurposed to support a Navy whose largest unit, for the immediate future, would probably be a battlecruiser or a Solarian version of the Grand Alliance’s LAC carriers, given how effective modern light attack craft would prove for most of the new SLN’s probable requirements. Every existing battlecruiser—hell, every existing heavy cruiser—would probably be scrapped as well, really, because they were just as obsolete as the ships-of-the-wall had been in an era of multi-drive missiles and LACs, but that could be deferred, at least for a time. As Gannon had pointed out, obsolete or not, they were quite capable of dealing with anyone short of the Grand Alliance.
None of that could happen overnight, of course.
<snip>
“I’m perfectly well aware of how much you have on your plate, Winston,” Gannon said now. “And, frankly, we’re damned lucky Jennings has the moral integrity and brains—and you have the moral courage—to recognize just how bad the existing system had become and actually do something about it. In fact, that’s the entire point, from the Navy’s perspective, to what I’m suggesting. The need to refocus the Navy on something other than licking its wounds, resentment, and revenge is the whole point of Jennings’s recommendations. Well, Frontier Fleet just lost seventy or eighty percent of its old missions, and the ones it still has are pretty much ‘business as usual.’ Nothing there to inspire men and women to embrace the total reorganization of their professional lives. But…”
He paused, eyebrows arched, and Kingsford nodded.
“Okay,” he said. “I think I see where you’re going with this now. Give the Navy an issue—an assignment that’s an obvious break with that ‘business as usual’ past of yours—right away. One we can use as a focusing device, an illustration of what the Navy we need to build will be doing instead of sitting around thinking long and homicidal thoughts. And an assignment—”
“An assignment they’ll feel proud of, instead of cynical about,” Gannon finished for him. “Yes. Winston, that’s what I’m proposing.


Looks like the SLN's going to be the one building lots of replacement warships. Its budget will no longer pay for Battle Fleet. The leadership has a focus upon strengthening morals, interservice and even international cooperation.

They'll be back sooner rather than later.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Dauntless   » Sat May 21, 2022 9:21 am

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Theemile wrote:
We saw the Aegis, An Avalon class, at Monica. It had the 2nd best defense suite at Monica (better than the 2 Star Knights), and is the only ship to come through the encounter untouched. They really just needed the ammo ship to get back in business. 20 LERMS is going to be able to go toe to toe with any Cataphract armed CA in 1924 and come out a winner.


thanks i'd forgotten that they had an Avalon for the battle of Monica.

impressive that it did better then the Star knights, due to being a smaller/more agile target? or just 25 years improvement in CM,PD and ECM?
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat May 21, 2022 11:13 am

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munroburton wrote:
They don't seem to be saying no. The section of textev in TEiF is several pages long and there are all sorts of interesting tidbits in it.

“Actually, it’s a proposal.”
“What I was afraid of.” Kingsford sighed again. “So what is it?”
“I want your permission to get in touch with Montaigne—it will be done discreetly—and see if I can get her to agree for the Anti-Slavery League to start working—again, discreetly—with the Navy.”
The admiral’s eyes widened.
“Working with us on what?”
“Rooting out the slave trade—the whole apparatus involved with it, not just the slave ships and depots.”
<snip>
“And you’d be right,” Gannon agreed. “Unfortunately, the police agency that ought to be doing it, especially in the Shell and the Verge, where it’s most deeply encysted, used to be called the Office of Frontier Security. Which, you may recall, is in the process of disbandment as one of the Grand Alliance’s surrender demands. Not that it’ll make that much difference. Too much of OFS was in bed with the slavers to begin with.”
“The Gendarmerie—”
“The Gendarmerie is undoubtedly going to wind up with final responsibility for this, and Attorney General Rorendaal hates the trade as much as I do.” Gannon said. “She’s going to push hard to convince Prime Minister Yon to officially instruct the Navy to begin applying the equipment clause. But as far as the Gendarmerie is concerned, Gaddis is up to his ass in alligators cleaning house right here on Old Terra. It’s going to be a while before he’s able to start culling out the bad apples in the Gendarmes who were assigned to work with OFS. Or on most of the Verge worlds, for that matter.”
“We can’t just start crosscutting jurisdictional lines,” Kingsford objected. “The entire League’s in a state of flux right now. Gaddis and I are agreed that the last thing we can afford right now is to even look like we’re getting into some sort of turf war. Having the military and the police at odds—or even looking like they’re at odds—isn’t going to engender a lot of confidence in the Provisional Assembly or the Constitutional Convention.”
“I’m not proposing anything of the sort,” Gannon said patiently. “For this to work, it would have to be a cooperative effort with the Gendarmerie, as well. In fact, I’ve already, um, discussed certain hypothetical concerns with Brigadier Gaddis.”
<snip>
“I can follow all that, but you still haven’t explained why the Navy should do it. Oh, I’ll grant that the slave trade is vile. That it’s a cancer that corrupts and poisons everything it touches. Hell, I’ll go further. Somebody needs to stomp on it, and stomp on it hard. But for Christ’s sake, Chuck!”
He shook his head, his expression like iron.
“You know better than almost anybody how many millions of men and women the Navy just lost. But in case you haven’t been thinking about that, let me put it into perspective for you. Our total casualties amount to almost thirty-two percent of Battle Fleet’s prewar standing strength. Thirty-two percent, Chuck. There’s not a single serving officer or rating who didn’t lose someone they knew. And every one of our surviving capital ships is completely obsolete, every one of our surviving officers and ratings knows we got our clock cleaned every single time we went up against the Grand Alliance, and every single one of them knows we surrendered the capital system of the League—hell, the entire League itself—without firing a single shot at Harrington! You say Gaddis has his hands full repairing and rebuilding the Gendarmerie? What the hell do you think I’m doing? I’ve got way too much on my plate to be looking for additional missions!”
Gannon looked back at him levelly for several seconds. Then—
“Winston, the biggest thing—by far—that the Solarian League Navy has on its plate is rebuilding itself without doing it around a revanchist spinal cord. You’re right about how brutally we got hammered. Mostly because of stupid fucking admirals and even stupider politicians who couldn’t pour piss out of a boot, maybe, but you’re right. We lost damned near a third of Battle Fleet’s peacetime strength. And how many of the people we didn’t lose, do you think, are happy about that? How many of them are sitting around thinking about the next time they go up against the Grand Alliance…this time with matching tech. Hell, they’d be more than human if they weren’t thinking exactly that!
“But we can’t afford for them to think anything of the sort. You’re just as worried about that as I am—we’ve talked about it Winston, a lot. We want the war with the Grand Alliance to be over. Done. Finished—for good and ever. The last thing we want is to just put it back on a shelf until the Navy’s got the equipment to fire it back up and rip the human race apart all over again. This time on a scale I don’t even want to think about!”
“Of course that’s the last thing we want,” Kingsford said just a bit testily. “That’s why I’m about to sign off on Willis’s force restructuring!”
<snip>
Completely disbanding Battle Fleet would probably evoke the loudest screams…at least from Battle Fleet’s existing hierarchy, Gannon thought. But Battle Fleet had to go. Jennings was absolutely on target with that. The SLN’s formal division into Frontier Fleet, charged with executing the Navy’s day-to-day duties and discharging its routine responsibilities, and Battle Fleet, charged with actually fighting any wars that came along, had been disastrous, Frontier Fleet had been badly enough tainted in the public’s eyes (and its own, if the truth be known) by the way in which it had been sucked into supporting the Office of Frontier Security’s corruption, but at least it had been steadily and fully engaged in doing things. Battle Fleet hadn’t. It had been a black hole down which funding poured every fiscal year, but it hadn’t had anyone to fight, and so it had stagnated. Its capital ships had served no function at all, except to fight battles, and the battles had never come.
<snip>
So what Jennings had proposed was that Battle Fleet simply be abolished and the Navy’s total focus folded over into what had been Frontier Fleet. Frontier Fleet would also be abolished, as a separate organizational niche. Instead, there would simply be the Solarian League Navy, restructured to be what it should have been all along: a single, unified force and command structure serving the League’s actual needs.
The abolition of both the Office of Frontier Security and its system of protectorates—there was a lot of abolishing going on, just at the moment, Gannon reflected—would simplify those needs enormously. It would also allow the Navy to step away from its distasteful role as OFS’s enforcer when it came time to intimidate—or crush—opposition to Frontier Security and its cronies in the Protectorates. What would remain would be the problems OFS had been intended to address when it was first created: peacekeeping on the peripheries, search and rescue, enforcement of interstellar law, and the maintenance of an effective and modern combat capability sufficient to dissuade any realistic external threat to the League.
So every single existing Solarian ship-of-the-wall was destined for the breakers and reclamation. Battle Fleet’s basing infrastructure would be hugely reduced—indeed, virtually eliminated—and what was retained would be repurposed to support a Navy whose largest unit, for the immediate future, would probably be a battlecruiser or a Solarian version of the Grand Alliance’s LAC carriers, given how effective modern light attack craft would prove for most of the new SLN’s probable requirements. Every existing battlecruiser—hell, every existing heavy cruiser—would probably be scrapped as well, really, because they were just as obsolete as the ships-of-the-wall had been in an era of multi-drive missiles and LACs, but that could be deferred, at least for a time. As Gannon had pointed out, obsolete or not, they were quite capable of dealing with anyone short of the Grand Alliance.
None of that could happen overnight, of course.
<snip>
“I’m perfectly well aware of how much you have on your plate, Winston,” Gannon said now. “And, frankly, we’re damned lucky Jennings has the moral integrity and brains—and you have the moral courage—to recognize just how bad the existing system had become and actually do something about it. In fact, that’s the entire point, from the Navy’s perspective, to what I’m suggesting. The need to refocus the Navy on something other than licking its wounds, resentment, and revenge is the whole point of Jennings’s recommendations. Well, Frontier Fleet just lost seventy or eighty percent of its old missions, and the ones it still has are pretty much ‘business as usual.’ Nothing there to inspire men and women to embrace the total reorganization of their professional lives. But…”
He paused, eyebrows arched, and Kingsford nodded.
“Okay,” he said. “I think I see where you’re going with this now. Give the Navy an issue—an assignment that’s an obvious break with that ‘business as usual’ past of yours—right away. One we can use as a focusing device, an illustration of what the Navy we need to build will be doing instead of sitting around thinking long and homicidal thoughts. And an assignment—”
“An assignment they’ll feel proud of, instead of cynical about,” Gannon finished for him. “Yes. Winston, that’s what I’m proposing.


Looks like the SLN's going to be the one building lots of replacement warships. Its budget will no longer pay for Battle Fleet. The leadership has a focus upon strengthening morals, interservice and even international cooperation.

They'll be back sooner rather than later.

I wonder if that "seventy or eighty percent of its old missions" that "Frontier Fleet just lost" by no longer having to play the heavy for OFS equate to having tied up 70-80% of its ships.

Because if the remaining 20-30%, the "peacekeeping on the peripheries, search and rescue, enforcement of interstellar law, and the maintenance of an effective and modern combat capability sufficient to dissuade any realistic external threat to the League" only took 20-30% of its "thousands upon thousands" [MoH] of ships[1] then the Grand Alliance picking up that slack beyond the League's boarders seems like it might be a lot smaller task than some have suggested.

---
[1] Actual quote "The SLN was the biggest fleet in the galaxy. Counting active duty and reserve squadrons, it boasted almost eleven thousand superdreadnoughts, and that didn’t even count the thousands upon thousands of battlecruisers, cruisers, and destroyers of Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet"; still since FF had more light units that BF it along probably had "thousands upon thousands" of ships.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat May 21, 2022 11:38 am

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There are too many parts to this.
One is that along with ALL of SLN's SD being functionally obsolete for modern warfare, a great number of it's BC had been destroyed between the defeats inflicted on them by the RMN, the Beowulf attack etc. SLN is still going to have to work at commerce protection within and on the edge of what evolves as SLN space but probably most of the existing SLN ships below the wall will be "adequate" for that job for a couple of years. Mostly they will be dealing with SLN level -if slightly behind and below- ships.

SEM and Grayson are going to need to start building what become the functional replacements for the former DD and CL to CA type ships if they want to stay ahead of the curve on tech developments even if it is other's ramping up based on observed or possibly "liberated" tech. How many times have we seen SLN and others talk about the RMN's "big assed destroyers"? The size creep is a function of mission evolution and other tech.

In the short term the GA's partners will need to work out what they NEW build to meet existing and projected needs. They have the personal, they will need to continue their training as well as bring new in just in terms of maintaining a viable fighting force.

They also need to train up experienced construction and repair forces. Also bring up and on-line disbursed manufacturing for all sorts of equipment. SEM can not afford to depend on either Beowulf or Haven as primary contractors of what they will need in the future.

The suggestion of exploration cruisers is a good one. Those will need a significant range and both "enough" crew (and marines and science staff) plus defence/offence capability to carry out extended missions. Not sure if a Heavy Cruiser or BC variant would be a good platform but it certainly would give range and power.
The Harvest Joy was an older Light Cruiser conversation to a wormhole research ship. It seems to me that with the tonnage creep we have seen, a HC or BC would come into the adjusted size with whatever modifications were needed.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat May 21, 2022 11:57 am

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Posts: 8303
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
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Dauntless wrote:
Theemile wrote:
We saw the Aegis, An Avalon class, at Monica. It had the 2nd best defense suite at Monica (better than the 2 Star Knights), and is the only ship to come through the encounter untouched. They really just needed the ammo ship to get back in business. 20 LERMS is going to be able to go toe to toe with any Cataphract armed CA in 1924 and come out a winner.


thanks i'd forgotten that they had an Avalon for the battle of Monica.

impressive that it did better then the Star knights, due to being a smaller/more agile target? or just 25 years improvement in CM,PD and ECM?
She probably had significantly tougher anti-missile defenses than the older Star Knights. Despite being half their tonnage she carried basically the same usable active defenses. Each class carrying a broadside of 8 CMs + 8 PDLC; though the CA's hammerheads carry 4 CMs + 5 PDLC to the CLs 0 and 4 respectively.

However the CL was designed for off-bore firing for both offense and defense; able to use the CMs of both broadsides to defend herself against missiles in a chase engagement; which is why she carried no additional tubes in her hammerheads.

So already Avalon would be able to bring 16 CM tubes to play in her defense while Warlock or Vigilant are still presumably restricted to just 8 -- as that's what they were designed for. Also, like the Sag-C she has "faster-firing counter-missile tubes, and additional control links" [Sos] so not only is she presumably pumping out more CMs than a Star Knight per salvo she's also pumping out salvos slightly more often.

Now, I think Monica was just a little too early for anybody to have gotten the Mk30 (seen at Sidemore) or Mk31 CMs; so everybody probably still has just the ~1.5 million km range ones. (Which is probably good for this comparison, because without upgrading their CM tubes I'm not sure pre-war ships could actually handle those newer CMs -- which would have really put them behind the newer ships defensively)

The reason I think the Star Knight might not have been upgraded for off-bore defensive fire is that SoS also states ""Hexapuma and Aegis were the only ships in Terekhov's riven Squadron with the off-bore capacity to fire both broadsides at a single target" (Though it's not impossible that they'd gotten at least a limited off-bore CM capability without a corresponding SDM upgrade)

Still, most likely the Avalon was knocking down more of the missiles targeting it while also likely being considered a lower priority target for the missiles than a heavy cruiser.

And that's before we get into soft kills like ECM, Jammers, and decoys -- where depending on how much the Star Knights had been upgraded or required it might also have an edge.



Also, I speculate that it's easy to forget an Avalon was there because she didn't take advantage of the range of her LERMs. (I actually wonder whether RFC had yet decided that Avalon's would have extended range missiles) when writing Shadow of Saganami) The battle was written as Hexapuma engaged alone with her Mk16s until the entire squadron joined in (at SDM range). However it does say that "penetrating the battlecruisers' defensive envelope required massed fire, so the controlling factor was the slowest cycle time of the squadron" [SoS]. Though I'd have thought since LERMs have about a 4 million km edge in range (from rest) over an SDM that once you'd reached LERM range it would have been worth Avalon opening fire just to complicate the BC's defense against Hexapuma's Mk16s. Help those missiles get a few extra hits. OTOH doing so would have singled out Avalon as a priority target once the Monican BCs reached their own missile range...
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by phillies   » Sat May 21, 2022 4:40 pm

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One might propose that with the perhaps forthcoming streak drive that new classes might become obsolete soon, and therefore older classes or revisions might be built.

Given likely opponents, choosing some automated class, and pulling missile capacity for more cutters or pinnaces and expanded space for for a larger marine detachment might be meritorious. More stores for longer voyages might be sensible.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Fox2!   » Sat May 21, 2022 10:37 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:(And the entire Maya sector - Shell, not even out in the verge, got nothing larger than a heavy (or possibly light) cruiser)


Light Cruisers have often been used as destroyer flagships, especially on remote stations.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Relax   » Sun May 22, 2022 5:49 am

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Theemile wrote:If I have my timeline correct, Galton fell in the fall of 1924.

You are the head of Buships of the RMN SNIP Knowing what the RMN believes it knows as of the Fall of Galton in 1924, #1 What ship design would you build next?

Assume that the Admiralty has decided to build a single design initially to prove their yards and new workforce. That design will be a current, proven design, SNIP can't change a ship more than 1-2% and only use proven tech.

What design would you build, why?

Being Grayson...
Being RHN... (I added this one)

As the Beowulf Naval Construction group, what ship would you build to get your feet fully into Manticorian design

Editing/bolding mine: Excellent topic by the way :D

1) What did Galton etc prove? Need even MORE intelligence gathering capabilities in system
2) Need MORE intelligence gathering over an even LARGER portion of the galaxy.

So, need even more RD's per tonnage of ship
So, need even more hulls per star system
So, what hulls with minor modification could meet the above criteria

We have 3 RMN candidates, which address #1, #2. Avalon, Roland, Kammerling

But, Your stipulation was to PROVE your workforce

Do these 3 classes of ship use the ENTIRE new workforce who all need ON-THE-JOB-TRAINING and requirements going forward? No.
1) Armor technicians and their machines are absent.
2) Advanced missile technicians for DDM/pods are absent.

Thus, the only candidate in town is the SAG-C for the RMN.

What 1%-2% would I change.
Micro fusion power(MFP) universal design.
MFP exists on:
RD's: ~200tons weeks of endurance,
Athena?: (Tonnage? High bandwith coms long endurance
Lorelie: Tonnage? At least RD; Giant power requirements,
Pods: Long endurance High power
Missile: Short endurance High power

RD/Athena/Pods have to service MFP using onboard ship resources. Service as in shut down after they start up, maintenance, recharge or hot swap.

And DDM's in a missile tube which have already had their MFP fired up but not fired out MUST have their MFP shut down, and have ability to be recharged via some mechanism so one does not lose the missiles in the PRE charge station before being fired out the missile tube.

So, we clearly have MFP's being shut down, maintenance, recharged, or swapped out entirely for new MFP's, then we should 100% be able to do this to every Missile POD. I know I and kzt joke about how the Honorverse does not know how to use a power cord, but the above logic should hold that every ship that has RD's should MORE than be able to swap out a MFP on a pod.

If above is true, why could one not do this for cutters, pinnaces, shuttles? They are larger... RD is ~200tons, Shuttle is upwards of 1000t. So swap 5 instead of 1. Simplifies everything for logistics, technician training, and more a ship on LONG endurance mission, spare parts and knowledge on how to do said maintenance.

As the above is true IMO, then a lighter class ship such as Avalon who only has LERM should also be able to haul pods around full of DDM/MDM indefinitely. Will require more work of course. Somehow swapping out a couple MFPs once every 2 weeks seems trivial in light of the fact said same class of small ship such as a ROLAND with a tiny crew probably has DOZENS of RD's it has to swap out their MFP's when they heavily patrolling a star system.

While the SAG-C would indeed prove the ENTIRE workforce is this actually what is needed? The ship type would indeed work, but would be massive overkill.

Kammerling design could be heavily modified, but that is more than 1%-2% change.

Roland checks the boxes minus the armor portion, but somehow its 189ktons only has room in it for a mere 100 people while an old 68kton destroyer has 300? With some changes, I see no reason a modified Roland could not be produced with more human beings present for a true marine complement, few more naval personnel to take over other ships as part of anti piracy etc. Can ROLAND fire Viper CM's with laser head especially crucial for say piracy operations? IF not, can this be modified in? IF so, we could lower number of Tubes on ROLAND and its DDM ammo storage if we ALSO assume we can swap out the MFP on a limpetted pod or two giving it more internal volume to fit in more personnel.

Avalon, modern existing design addresses both #1, and #2 very well, but if the MFP portion can be fixed should fit the bill almost entirely barring the armor techs. Of course this means still building LERM missiles which weigh nearly identical tonnage to DDM with far WORSE capabilities complicating ones logistics for a dead end design type.

My end case is: ROLAND II. Instead of 12 missile DDM tubes go with 8 or 10. Use space for more personnel. Get Vipers as part of CM battery. Limpetted pods with hot swappable MFP. And throw in more powerful sidewall generators if at all possible. Only problem: More space for RD's, though a BIG part of its larger size IS its requirements for more RD's than previous classes so... might already fit the bill perfectly, but any additional space for even more?

Armor techs can learn their craft elsewhere on new build SD'P.

As for Grayson/RHN/Beowulf... Their requirements are completely different other than Beowulf's which by description in the books seems to closer to that of RMN with all of their traditional prestige, businesses in the SL etc. Grayson needs the basic ROLAND design. RHN? Hrmm, I think they might eventually fall more inline with Beowulf/RMN with ROLAND II design but currently do not need it and the basic ROLAND design should win out.

PS: IF, uh hem, IF one could modify a class more than 1%-->2%, the Kammerling class would be the class to modify if one just uses its base powerplant/compensator etc. Though with streak drive coming... ;)

Excellent topic
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Relax   » Sun May 22, 2022 6:50 am

Relax
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Yes, I realize this is an old reply to an old post. :P

All those pre ERM/DDM/MDM/Pod ships will be SOLD to nations the alliance is Happy with as they are still ALL superior to any ex SLN ships they can get their hands on. Why? Most SL systems have nothing. Most systems outside the SL, have nothing. All those "junk" RMN even RHN ships are all SUPERIOR to anything else commonly available. So, yes, those ships will be disposed of, but not to any scrapper. They will bring in $$$$$$$ to help fund rebuilding, expansion etc of the alliance. Yes, the alliance will be radically building out their lighter units as their area of operations just MASSIVELY increased and effective territory(all the Verge and Protectorates) in effect are now Alliance patrol areas that used to be nominally controlled by the SL. This is untold thousands of star systems requiring Thousands of new light ships. See my Roland II and if one has time to incorporate new stuff too, Kammerling revamp design.
Jonathan_S wrote:
drothgery wrote:
Well, the wartime budgets aren't justifiable, but the new peacetime baseline is going to be ... quite a bit higher ... then the pre-first war baseline, if only because the Star Empire has a heck of a lot more to defend, and it's much more widely dispersed, than the pre-war Star Kingdom did. Beyond that, they still have a non-trivial amount of older warships still in service and they honestly shouldn't keep any pre-ERM light warships.

The pre-pod wallers are probably already gone. Most of them were, IIRC, with home fleet and so died in the Battle of Manticore. Any survivors should have been quickly retired as soon as the Python Lump came online.

But I'd go a step further and say the RMN shouldn't keep any SD(P)s that lack Keyhole II. (Though any remaining Keyhole I ships might be worth upgrading to II rather than disposing of. But they're not worth keeping w/o said upgrade)

Otherwise I agree with you -- the remaining legacy ships need to go.
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Re: Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next
Post by Relax   » Sun May 22, 2022 6:56 am

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Agree
Pirates are pirates because they are lazy, envious, etc or desperate. The desperate are more mercenary. With the SLN disappearing from the Protectorates, we are looking at thousands of new operators who will be more than willing to spend $$$ for more modern stuff. Some will be bad some good. They will own entire star systems after all with the needs of a star system as well. I see no reason systems would not prioritize at minimum clunky DDM Pod missiles of some type or other just for system defense.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:Closer to 1930pd all bets are off - Pods will be common place in a rainbow of capabilities. But I still think a pirate would rather sell them than fire them. I would be more worried about a warlord building a tramp podlayer to build an empire than pirates.


Pirates are always very close to being broke. They don't want to spend any missile, much less a hundred of them. There's no way they'd use pods to attack prey anyway, because there's not going to be anything left of that.
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