NEED TO KNOW

cthia wrote:It would be remiss not to point out that the reason Honor had to be kept out of being read in on TWTSNBN is because at the time the weapon could not be named. The grav lance itself was on the need to know list.

It wasn't. And that's not why it's nicknamed that.

Most of the RMN's SDs, DNs, and BCs already carried a grav lance. As did some capital ships of other navies. The only thing they were experimenting with on Fearless was whether it would be a useful capability to build a cruiser as a "battleship killer" by moving the GL + ET combo into such a light hull.

(And okay, that trial was called "Hemphill's secret weapon"; but the only secret was that Fearless carried such a weapon; the weapon itself was a well known one. And that secrecy was just aimed at achieving surprise in the RMN's intermural war games)


It's nicknamed TWTSNBN here (as a bit of an in-joke) because David Weber got so damned sick of people here and on other boards incessantly proposing new, crazy, and impossible, ways to use it as a wonder weapon. It was never called that in the books.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:It would be remiss not to point out that the reason Honor had to be kept out of being read in on TWTSNBN is because at the time the weapon could not be named. The grav lance itself was on the need to know list.

It wasn't. And that's not why it's nicknamed that.

Most of the RMN's SDs, DNs, and BCs already carried a grav lance. As did some capital ships of other navies. The only thing they were experimenting with on Fearless was whether it would be a useful capability to build a cruiser as a "battleship killer" by moving the GL + ET combo into such a light hull.

(And okay, that trial was called "Hemphill's secret weapon"; but the only secret was that Fearless carried such a weapon; the weapon itself was a well known one. And that secrecy was just aimed at achieving surprise in the RMN's intermural war games)


It's nicknamed TWTSNBN here (as a bit of an in-joke) because David Weber got so damned sick of people here and on other boards incessantly proposing new, crazy, and impossible, ways to use it as a wonder weapon. It was never called that in the books.

I disagree. I think it was, because it was.

I KNOW why it is really nicknamed that.

AND OH HOW WELL I KNOW!

Remember, I nearly got decapitated by the author because I dared to mention the damned thing as part of an idea of my own. As if I was the one who created the damned abortion. I wasn't exactly a newbie at the time, but I was fairly new, and technical threads were less of a hang out for me, especially while usually having so many fires burning of my own. So, I had not really digested that the cute shorthand that was trending for the grav lance, TWTSNBN ... REALLY SHOULD NOT BE NAMED!!!

I thought it was a lighthearted joke. I hadn't realized at the time that the author had grown a wild hair up his bum... because of his own tech.

WHICH IS WHY I GIVE PROPS TO THEEMILE'S STICKY AS A WARNING TO NOOBS.

As it stood once upon a time it was an undisclosed minefield that newbies could haphazardly wander into.

But I was being facetious about it because I was bitter about that for years and therapy is healing me.

And... it very well WAS on the need to know list! It wasn't just Sebastian D'Orville that needed to be kept out of the loop. Remember, as far as classified info is concerned, every one of your enemies is a D'Orville.

The same reason you didn't want D'Orville to know (besides the need to actually field test the new weapon) is that you don't want your opponent to realize that the threat environment had changed. Sound familiar?

For this tactic to work, the enemy would have to underestimate the danger of a mere light cruiser.

Forgive the rant, but it is an old wound.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:There was nothing for her to know about the grav lance aboard the command she was being given until such a thing was installed.

It wasn't just the omission that she would be carrying a grav lance, but it was what the darn thing cost her in terms of defensive capabilities. Honor knew she was getting the command. And being Honor she wasn't being slack in RTFM and refreshing her memory on light cruisers. You don't want to assume a command and THEN try to catch up on her abilities. Or defaults. That could cost you your command, your crew, and your own ass.

And, it was a bit of a respect thing to boot. The only thing that excuses it is need to know. Yet, I think Honor needed to know ASAP.


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cthia wrote:And... it very well WAS on the need to know list! It wasn't just Sebastian D'Orville that needed to be kept out of the loop. Remember, as far as classified info is concerned, every one of your enemies is a D'Orville.

The same reason you didn't want D'Orville to know (besides the need to actually field test the new weapon) is that you don't want your opponent to realize that the threat environment had changed. Sound familiar?

For this tactic to work, the enemy would have to underestimate the danger of a mere light cruiser.

This is all true. If the grav lance had worked as a surprise weapon without an immediate counter, it would have gone into production. I don't think that much refitting could have been kept away from the Peeps, but they may have overlooked just how deadly it could be at close range. The RMN might have needed a disinformation campaign to fool the spies.

None of that implies the commanding officers of the ships carrying such a weapon wouldn't know. They were briefed.

I don't buy into the "in case of fire, break glass" type of extra information. If you don't pre-brief the CO and XO, they won't know that the weapon is available at the time of need. Moreover, they need to train with the weapon, to drill with it and know what it can do and what it can't do. Revealing "oh BTW" that the ship has a secret weapon could be more dangerous than otherwise, if the crew doesn't know how to properly use it.

I've seen this in other SciFi. At the moment it looks like Our Heroes will lose, the Friendly Spy reveals that the ship actually has a better weapon or some other secret technology, so they tell the Brilliant Chief Engineer to turn it on, "more power to the engines!", the Young Captain magically then knows how to properly use it, while the Unnecessary Officer on the Bridge makes a snarky comment. Then they win the day. Maybe good drama, makes the reader (or watcher if TV) feel good. Not realistic.

See the Omega 13 in Galaxy Quest. Which is not insulting because they did it on purpose. "Never give up, never surrender!

cthia wrote:It wasn't just the omission that she would be carrying a grav lance, but it was what the darn thing cost her in terms of defensive capabilities. Honor knew she was getting the command. And being Honor she wasn't being slack in RTFM and refreshing her memory on light cruisers. You don't want to assume a command and THEN try to catch up on her abilities. Or defaults. That could cost you your command, your crew, and your own ass.

And, it was a bit of a respect thing to boot. The only thing that excuses it is need to know. Yet, I think Honor needed to know ASAP.

Oh, I'm not disputing any of that. She needed to know and it was a big slap on her face, an up and coming officer the likes of which the RMN sorely needed. Which is why her mentor took it upon himself to deliver the news so he could ensure she understood it was not a slight on her capabilities.

I'm not sure how much sooner she could have been told. We don't know when exactly Fearless was selected for this, do we? Maybe Hemphill's office hadn't released the selection until the last minute.

I think Hemphill should have brought Honor in and explain the weapon to her. It was her brain-child anyway. She should have attempted to get the best out of the weapon, which means working with the captain that was going to use it to have her understand its capabilities and limitations. But she didn't. Maybe Hemphill (whom we know to be arrogant) didn't think it was needed, maybe Hemphill was busy with everything else. This was a major exercise and she was likely overseeing a lot of other tech installations.

And maybe Honor was busy too. She had just graduated from the ATC and was returning to service (probably after leave on Sphinx).

My point is: a commander does not need to be briefed in everything the WDB or Admiralty are thinking about. They'll be told when they need to know it. Sometimes too late to make a difference. No one is perfect.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:This is all true. If the grav lance had worked as a surprise weapon without an immediate counter, it would have gone into production. I don't think that much refitting could have been kept away from the Peeps, but they may have overlooked just how deadly it could be at close range. The RMN might have needed a disinformation campaign to fool the spies.

IIRC, if the combo had worked, the plan was to incorporate it into a new heavy cruiser design - some follow-on or complement to the recently introduced Star Knights - not to refit it into existing cruisers.

They just picked Fearless as the tech testbed as she was due to be scrapped soon and was about the smallest, and otherwise least useful, hull they could get their hands on for some real-world testing.

And a ship designed from the ground up to carry this, and on a significantly larger hull to boot, probably wouldn't have had her conventional offensive systems crippled to anywhere near the same degree poor Fearless had.

Still, it'd probably be hard to keep such a weapons fit secret long term; though they apparently did a pretty good job of hiding quite how revolutionary the Star Knight design was until it got into combat. So they might have successfully hid that the new class had a GL.

Ironically I think the bit that'd be harder to hide is that it had a significant energy torpedo battery; as those have weapons ports on the hull where they could be seen while the GL is an engineering system buried deep in the hull. However since ETs are useless against an intact sidewall that'd hint pretty strongly that the class must have some way to eliminate or bypass that defense.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Oh, I'm not disputing any of that. She needed to know and it was a big slap on her face, an up and coming officer the likes of which the RMN sorely needed. Which is why her mentor took it upon himself to deliver the news so he could ensure she understood it was not a slight on her capabilities.

I'm not sure how much sooner she could have been told. We don't know when exactly Fearless was selected for this, do we? Maybe Hemphill's office hadn't released the selection until the last minute.

Honor got briefed almost the moment she took command; which was while Fearless was still in the yards at Hephaestus being refit with the GL + ET combo. Though that obviously means Fearless was selected well before Honor was assigned -- however the choice to offer the command to Honor might have been a late breaking one. Or it might have been decided earlier but tradition might well be that no matter how promising the officer is you don't tell them of their next command while in the ATC; you wait until after they've formally graduated (even if there's no chance they're going to fail out)

And Honor went straight from ATC graduation to Courvosier's office, got his congratulations and was given her orders to assume command Fearless, and that "the rush was all because of the need to get her to Hephaestus to shepherd her new ship through its refit in time for the upcoming Fleet exercise" [OBS: Ch1]. Then headed right up to the station, without even "time for a full download before catching the shuttle."

But even if they decided a while back to give her Fearless they can't exactly brief her on the ship's new testbed weapons configuration before telling her she's being offered command (And then she might, theoretically, inexplicably cripple her carrier by refusing the offer of command - in which case there'd be no reason to brief her)


So she came aboard, did the formal taking command ceremony - reading out the admiralties orders directing her to assume command - and McKeon welcomes her and starts walking her through the details of the ongoing refit and Fearless's new weapons fit.

It seems from the time she got, and accepted, her orders until she was briefed was probably less than an hour or two.

However I agree with you that it would have been better if Hemphill had arranged to fully brief Honor, between graduation and boarding Fearless, on the background, the ship's changes, and go over the proposed tactics. (Whether that's instead of, or after, being whisked over to Courvosier's office to be congratulated and given her orders). Ah well.

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Oh, I'm not disputing any of that. She needed to know and it was a big slap on her face, an up and coming officer the likes of which the RMN sorely needed. Which is why her mentor took it upon himself to deliver the news so he could ensure she understood it was not a slight on her capabilities.

I'm not sure how much sooner she could have been told. We don't know when exactly Fearless was selected for this, do we? Maybe Hemphill's office hadn't released the selection until the last minute.

Honor got briefed almost the moment she took command; which was while Fearless was still in the yards at Hephaestus being refit with the GL + ET combo. Though that obviously means Fearless was selected well before Honor was assigned -- however the choice to offer the command to Honor might have been a late breaking one. Or it might have been decided earlier but tradition might well be that no matter how promising the officer is you don't tell them of their next command while in the ATC; you wait until after they've formally graduated (even if there's no chance they're going to fail out)

And Honor went straight from ATC graduation to Courvosier's office, got his congratulations and was given her orders to assume command Fearless, and that "the rush was all because of the need to get her to Hephaestus to shepherd her new ship through its refit in time for the upcoming Fleet exercise" [OBS: Ch1]. Then headed right up to the station, without even "time for a full download before catching the shuttle."

But even if they decided a while back to give her Fearless they can't exactly brief her on the ship's new testbed weapons configuration before telling her she's being offered command (And then she might, theoretically, inexplicably cripple her carrier by refusing the offer of command - in which case there'd be no reason to brief her)


So she came aboard, did the formal taking command ceremony - reading out the admiralties orders directing her to assume command - and McKeon welcomes her and starts walking her through the details of the ongoing refit and Fearless's new weapons fit.

It seems from the time she got, and accepted, her orders until she was briefed was probably less than an hour or two.

However I agree with you that it would have been better if Hemphill had arranged to fully brief Honor, between graduation and boarding Fearless, on the background, the ship's changes, and go over the proposed tactics. (Whether that's instead of, or after, being whisked over to Courvosier's office to be congratulated and given her orders). Ah well.

Interesting logic, and I agree that if true it somewhat changes things.

But I was always under the impression - or I'd like to dramatically think so anyway - that Honor was specifically picked for the command because she was the up and coming one of a kind officer that might have a chance to prove its worth. I don't think any other single officer could have made it work, once in the War Games and then once on the battlefield, except Honor. Honor's unprecedented natural tactics made her a shoe-in to be selected for the test bed, I always thought. She was somewhat of a child prodigy, what with her adolescent looks.

cthia wrote:Interesting logic, and I agree that if true it somewhat changes things.

But I was always under the impression - or I'd like to dramatically think so anyway - that Honor was specifically picked for the command because she was the up and coming one of a kind officer that might have a chance to prove its worth. I don't think any other single officer could have made it work, once in the War Games and then once on the battlefield, except Honor. Honor's unprecedented natural tactics made her a shoe-in to be selected for the test bed, I always thought. She was somewhat of a child prodigy, what with her adolescent looks.

The straight from graduation to Courvosier's office onto the shuttle to Hephestus and aboard Fearless is straight out of OBS chapter 1. The assumption that all that took no more than 2 hours is mine.

Speculation about not giving ship assignments until after graduation is also mine; but seems reasonable. (Though that might just be Hollywood's influence on me)

Don't forget that while Honor was a very promising young officer ATC followed her first hyper capable command (the DD HMS Hawkwing), and it was already an usual sign of a promising young commander to be given a hyper capable command before attending ATC. And Fearless was actually her 3rd command, as she'd commanded the sublight LAC 113 before Hawkwing.

So she'd had some time to show her skills before even going to ATC. And yes, that, plus per performance at ATC might well have gotten her handpicked to command the Fearless testbed.

Though I don't know if she was the literally only officer that could have gotten that much out of Fearless in the war game and then at Basilisk. But I suspect a majority of potential DD or CL captains would have struggled to do as well.

Honor got sandbagged, by a bunch of ego brushed Senior Officers.

She a got a Lt Cruiser - which was her #2 hyper capable command. Her 1st assignment with Fearless was to finish the "modifications" which crippled her ship and then demonstrated that a CL could "kill" an SD with it.
All of which she did.
The problem.........TWTSNBN is a one-trick pony in a platform as light as a CL (and an old one at that) and you have to wonder at the considerations given to it's survivability in an actual combat situation. Ok, she got close enough to the SD to use it......and though the shock and surprise managed to get away. But what happened in EVERY OTHER ITERATION of the War Games was clear enough that the concept was flawed.
Let me count the ways...
1) Perhaps- in a real battle- a CL MIGHT work it's way into "that weapon" range of an SD but would at least one system on the SD then try to target the really really close enemy CL that had just shot the SD?.....this is energy range. She got a way the 1st time because they were shocked....shouldn't anybody on the SD been taken to task for not at least attempting to ream the CL? Was the SD theoretically either destroyed or fully incapacitated?

2) Said CL doesn't actualy have the armor and probably the shielding to survive much of what an SD would throw at it....and Fearless was mercilessly and relentlessly swatted (as well as specifically targeted) in what seemed as deliberate payback for the initial success having blindsided the command staff who were not (it's a surprise, cann't spoil that) told about The Weapon nor how it could be used.

3) Honor did her job.......but being forced to try and replicate the attack EVERY time for the multiple times the War Game was run and then being "beaten" every time and having to endure repeated failure when EVERYBODY involved at higher levels knew after the 2nd round of the Games/Problem saw what was happening and yet she was essentially ordered to commit suicide time after time ....not only were her targets waiting for her, they figuratively obliterated her the moment she came anywhere in range of their weapons.

4) Senior staff felt they had to get Fearless out of sight, ok, that makes at least a little sense if they need to evaluate the results of the "tests" but instead of getting congratulated on making it work- at least the 1st time, having been ordered to keep doing it again and again against people who are specifically looking for you by name (HMS Fearless, - Harrington, we read you IFF), the sent her to a what was considered a "punishment" station.
Heck, they COULD have sent her right back out to Silesia and had her go looking for and killing pirates for several months....what pirate in their right mind would want to go up against even an older RMN CL? She could have been USEFULL. The Crew would have been able to get over the drubbing they took and they would have been being USFULL and doing something "normal" and needed in a place where they would be of use. How many tubes and how many missiles in Fearless's magazine were left after the tore her up to make the "modification"? Convoy duty in Silesia? Anti-piracy duty in Silesia?

She did her dam job- and did it well. Just what glory did the SD cover itself with after the that 1st round when they were sucker punched? I suspect it wasn't a lot (other than rub Hemperhill's nose in her failure once it was a surprise). So because some Admirals and Captains got their egos bruised they sent Harrington (and her entire crew) off on punishment duty.

Ok....plot driven.