NEED TO KNOW

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why would an ensign have a need to know when his chain of command doesn't?

Because he's an intel LDO and was read into a program that the senior officer isn't.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Because shit happens and in the Navy it stinks something awful.

If an Ensign aboard HMS Fearless (CM-56) had been privy to Apollo, and he ran into Pavel Young in the Basilisk System, Young damn sure wouldn't have had a need to know.

I asked "chain of command." The captain of another ship is not in the chain of command of one ensign.

But ok, I understand your point now. How would an lower-ranked officer handle being asked to talk about his or her work by a much senior officer whom he or she didn't know had the clearance to know about it? Confirm with their own chain of command. In a professional service, one can't be faulted for being careful with state secrets. Junior officers and enlisted should be taught to and empowered to refuse sharing until they're certain that they're doing the right thing. At worst, this could cause a minor annoyance and delay in information-sharing, but it's clearly better than the alternative of revealing a secret to someone whom shouldn't know it.

I get it that in a pre-war RMN, a Pavel Young like in your supposition could take revenge on the poor ensign and stall his/her career, or get him/her even dismissed from service. That would be a loss... but wouldn't it be preferable to letting Pavel Young know whatever secret that was?

I am glad you brought "chain of command" up in this discussion. I am not so sure how that policy would have worked in this instance.

Wasn't Honor subordinate to Young? If Young would have chosen to remain in the system like he should have, wasn't Honor subject to his orders, thus, his chain of command? And if she was, wouldn't her crew have been subject to his command as well? Military matters sometimes escape me.

And, as far as this discussion, let's say Honor and a select few of her crew knew about Apollo, couldn't Young demand to know for whatever reason? Young could just as well pressure Honor into sharing the knowledge.

If Honor knew about Apollo because she was in the same boat as Henke at one point - briefed because she was expected to receive Apollo - then Young could have claimed a need to know how to properly utilize a weapon that is earmarked to be used in a system where he is the senior officer on the spot.

Worst yet, if Fearless had somehow been fitted with Apollo then wouldn't Honor, Fearless and her crew have been subject to Young if he had remained in the system?

I don't think the Admiralty would have intentionally put Honor in that situation, but as I said concerning the Navy, shit happens. Perhaps the dispatch boat with his recall orders is destroyed.

cthia wrote:I am glad you brought "chain of command" up in this discussion. I am not so sure how that policy would have worked in this instance.

Wasn't Honor subordinate to Young? If Young would have chosen to remain in the system like he should have, wasn't Honor subject to his orders, thus, his chain of command? And if she was, wouldn't her crew have been subject to his command as well? Military matters sometimes escape me.

And, as far as this discussion, let's say Honor and a select few of her crew knew about Apollo, couldn't Young demand to know for whatever reason? Young could just as well pressure Honor into sharing the knowledge.

If Honor knew about Apollo because she was in the same boat as Henke at one point - briefed because she was expected to receive Apollo - then Young could have claimed a need to know how to properly utilize a weapon that is earmarked to be used in a system where he is the senior officer on the spot.

Worst yet, if Fearless had somehow been fitted with Apollo then wouldn't Honor, Fearless and her crew have been subject to Young if he had remained in the system?

I don't think the Admiralty would have intentionally put Honor in that situation, but as I said concerning the Navy, shit happens. Perhaps the dispatch boat with his recall orders is destroyed.

Yes, she was subordinate to Pavel Young on station at Basilisk; however in the situation you describe I would expect that he would already have been briefed about Apollo. I do not expect the Admiralty to assign an Apollo equipped ship to anyone not familiar with the best way to use it.

On Basilisk Station does have a similar situation in that Honor's ship now has as its primary weapon the grav-lance; so Young could have demanded an explanation of it. The only way out would be if she had been ordered by someone higher in the chain of command to divulge no details. Then she could push back by stating that he needed to send that request up to their superiors; but that would be an extremely awkward position for her to be placed. In the absence of such orders, she would have to provide the summary.

Another similar situation occurs in The Honor of the Queen, where she has placed her ships under Grayson command to defend against attack by Masada. The Grayson commander intends to use those ships in ways that are not optimal, because he does not understand the FTL drone system. She has to appeal her case to higher Grayson authority to correct how her ships will be used.

cthia wrote:I am glad you brought "chain of command" up in this discussion. I am not so sure how that policy would have worked in this instance.

Wasn't Honor subordinate to Young? If Young would have chosen to remain in the system like he should have, wasn't Honor subject to his orders, thus, his chain of command? And if she was, wouldn't her crew have been subject to his command as well? Military matters sometimes escape me.

And, as far as this discussion, let's say Honor and a select few of her crew knew about Apollo, couldn't Young demand to know for whatever reason? Young could just as well pressure Honor into sharing the knowledge.

If Honor knew about Apollo because she was in the same boat as Henke at one point - briefed because she was expected to receive Apollo - then Young could have claimed a need to know how to properly utilize a weapon that is earmarked to be used in a system where he is the senior officer on the spot.

Worst yet, if Fearless had somehow been fitted with Apollo then wouldn't Honor, Fearless and her crew have been subject to Young if he had remained in the system?

I don't think the Admiralty would have intentionally put Honor in that situation, but as I said concerning the Navy, shit happens. Perhaps the dispatch boat with his recall orders is destroyed.

Currently, and I'd assume in the Honorverse, when you're briefed on classified information one of the things you're told is who you have to contact to find out if somebody else is cleared for that same information.

If you ended up in a situation where your superior officer in the chain of command wasn't that person and you hadn't been told that they were cleared for the information you're not supposed to share it with them until you've checked with your designated contact.

(And yes, that could be very uncomfortable if the superior officer goes all overbearing about it. But the rules are clear -- as a junior person you do not have authorization to decide who is cleared for that information and must check before discussing it)


Now, complicating all of that is that sometimes exigent circumstances means that the junior person probably should break the rules and share the classified information; in a situation where there isn't time, or ability, to get that sharing properly approved ahead of time but that information is critical to the safety or success in the situation.
(Which is why attempts to have computers strictly enforce classified sharing rules runs into problems -- they follow the letter of the rules even in situations where it'd be better not to).
But there's a real risk that, after the fact, people won't agree that the information needed to be shared; in which case that junior person is in a lot of trouble.


So in your (unlikely) hypothetical:
If Young was trying to get operational details of Apollo and Honor didn't know if he was cleared for those she should have sent a query to her designated contact person to find out and not given him anything until she was told by the appropriate authorities that she was allowed to. But, if she hadn't yet heard back when naval combat became likely she probably then should have, at her own risk, make Young aware of the capabilities Apollo gives them should Sirius refuse to stop or open fire.

Jonathan_S wrote:If Young was trying to get operational details of Apollo and Honor didn't know if he was cleared for those she should have sent a query to her designated contact person to find out and not given him anything until she was told by the appropriate authorities that she was allowed to. But, if she hadn't yet heard back when naval combat became likely she probably then should have, at her own risk, make Young aware of the capabilities Apollo gives them should Sirius refuse to stop or open fire.

This is highly unlikely in this particular situation. There were exactly two ships in the system and Honor was supposed to place hers under the command of the station commander. She'd have been briefed in no uncertain terms whether that station commander was cleared for the high-security datum she was privy to. There'd be no confusion: she'd know he wasn't cleared. Her action would also be clear: tell him to go get permission first. This propagates down the chain of command: a lowly ensign in the tactical department aboard Fearless is technically under Young's overall command, but Young can't order him or her directly, not without exigent circumstances. Young has to go through Honor and McKeon.

Now, yes, the commander on the scene has the option of overruling prior orders from commanders not on the scene, even if those latter were superior to the former. But he'd better have a good reason. If what had happened is that the Peeps arrived after Sirius called for them, and Warlock and Fearless were the only two ships left defending, he could order Honor to change her mind and she'd likely agree. And it might be too late to brief Young on the best uses of the weapons she carried, with disastrous consequences.

Which is why this situation is unreal. The station commander would have been briefed on the weapons at his disposal. Assuming the bureaucracy worked, of course.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I am glad you brought "chain of command" up in this discussion. I am not so sure how that policy would have worked in this instance.

Wasn't Honor subordinate to Young? If Young would have chosen to remain in the system like he should have, wasn't Honor subject to his orders, thus, his chain of command? And if she was, wouldn't her crew have been subject to his command as well? Military matters sometimes escape me.

And, as far as this discussion, let's say Honor and a select few of her crew knew about Apollo, couldn't Young demand to know for whatever reason? Young could just as well pressure Honor into sharing the knowledge.

If Honor knew about Apollo because she was in the same boat as Henke at one point - briefed because she was expected to receive Apollo - then Young could have claimed a need to know how to properly utilize a weapon that is earmarked to be used in a system where he is the senior officer on the spot.

Worst yet, if Fearless had somehow been fitted with Apollo then wouldn't Honor, Fearless and her crew have been subject to Young if he had remained in the system?

I don't think the Admiralty would have intentionally put Honor in that situation, but as I said concerning the Navy, shit happens. Perhaps the dispatch boat with his recall orders is destroyed.

Yes, she was subordinate to Pavel Young on station at Basilisk; however in the situation you describe I would expect that he would already have been briefed about Apollo. I do not expect the Admiralty to assign an Apollo equipped ship to anyone not familiar with the best way to use it.

On Basilisk Station does have a similar situation in that Honor's ship now has as its primary weapon the grav-lance; so Young could have demanded an explanation of it. The only way out would be if she had been ordered by someone higher in the chain of command to divulge no details. Then she could push back by stating that he needed to send that request up to their superiors; but that would be an extremely awkward position for her to be placed. In the absence of such orders, she would have to provide the summary.

Another similar situation occurs in The Honor of the Queen, where she has placed her ships under Grayson command to defend against attack by Masada. The Grayson commander intends to use those ships in ways that are not optimal, because he does not understand the FTL drone system. She has to appeal her case to higher Grayson authority to correct how her ships will be used.

The gravlance was a huge difference from Apollo. It has already been installed in the Homer BC class (which just stopped building), Is presumably in some early Reliant BCs because they were under construction in 1900 when OBS took place, and is in at least 2 SD classes and 1 DN class (Victory and Sphinx, and Majestic). The Fearless was an attempt to put a capital weapon on a CL/CA hull and turn it into a capital ship assassin. (It was a proof of concept testbed for a never built heavy cruiser).

The technology had been out there for 20 years and was well known - putting it on the smallest viable hull possible was the new thing. Which, in turn, proved to be a one trick pony with a glass jaw - after the concept was identified, the opfor simply started each follow on engagement by concentrating on obliviating the screen, instead of weakening the wallers at distance. And that's hard on light cruisers.....

So this is akin to us putting Tomahawk box launchers on a minelayer today - at worst a CO would need to be read into the project at a high level if one was assigned to his command. There is no new tech he is not classified from knowing about except the fiddley engineering details.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:If Young was trying to get operational details of Apollo and Honor didn't know if he was cleared for those she should have sent a query to her designated contact person to find out and not given him anything until she was told by the appropriate authorities that she was allowed to. But, if she hadn't yet heard back when naval combat became likely she probably then should have, at her own risk, make Young aware of the capabilities Apollo gives them should Sirius refuse to stop or open fire.

This is highly unlikely in this particular situation. There were exactly two ships in the system and Honor was supposed to place hers under the command of the station commander. She'd have been briefed in no uncertain terms whether that station commander was cleared for the high-security datum she was privy to. There'd be no confusion: she'd know he wasn't cleared. Her action would also be clear: tell him to go get permission first. This propagates down the chain of command: a lowly ensign in the tactical department aboard Fearless is technically under Young's overall command, but Young can't order him or her directly, not without exigent circumstances. Young has to go through Honor and McKeon.

Now, yes, the commander on the scene has the option of overruling prior orders from commanders not on the scene, even if those latter were superior to the former. But he'd better have a good reason. If what had happened is that the Peeps arrived after Sirius called for them, and Warlock and Fearless were the only two ships left defending, he could order Honor to change her mind and she'd likely agree. And it might be too late to brief Young on the best uses of the weapons she carried, with disastrous consequences.

Which is why this situation is unreal. The station commander would have been briefed on the weapons at his disposal. Assuming the bureaucracy worked, of course.

Actually I agree, but I don't think the scenario is unreal. As I said, in the Navy, shit happens.

Do consider that I said Young was sent orders to return Home, but the dispatch boat had been destroyed.

The point is that I don't think the Admiralty would trust such a classified life-line like Apollo to a numbskull like Pavel Young. If captured, Young would have squealed like a stuck pig.

And with Apollo, Fearless would not have needed Warlock.

cthia wrote:How exactly would, let's say an Ensign - who has a need to know - handle being browbeat by a superior officer who does not have a need to know but has an improper desire to know?

Remove him )or her) self from the situation. Contact the program security officer, explain to him what is going on, and request that someone contact the superior and remind him of the limits of need to know. And otherwise say nothing.

cthia wrote:Actually I agree, but I don't think the scenario is unreal. As I said, in the Navy, shit happens.

Do consider that I said Young was sent orders to return Home, but the dispatch boat had been destroyed.

Why would they send Fearless and a dispatch boat? If Fearless was supposed to remain on-station and Warlock return home, without telling its CO about the secrets, Honor could have carried the orders for Pavel. Sending a DB after the fact makes no sense, because it would mean Fearless is there for a non-zero period of time under Young's command.

I could accept if another warship had been sent ahead of time to replace Warlock, with Fearless being sent later. Then when Honor arrives, expecting to find that other and whose commander had been briefed on the secret weapon, she finds only Warlock. That's a more realistic scenario. In this case, her orders and the classification would still preclude her from revealing the secret, but it's also a very temporary situation. If the replacement ship was MIA, they'd immediately notify the home base to figure out what had happened.

But I could accept that in this shuffle, the reclassification orders may be forgotten when Warlock is ordered to remain on-station.

The point is that I don't think the Admiralty would trust such a classified life-line like Apollo to a numbskull like Pavel Young. If captured, Young would have squealed like a stuck pig.

And with Apollo, Fearless would not have needed Warlock.

I agree, which is why this situation is so unreal. If Fearless didn't need Warlock, Honor would have carried orders to Pavel for him to return home and for her to assume command of the station. He'd have no leeway to stay and she'd be the one calling the shots.

He was a numbskull and was only assigned to as a station commander because it was such a low-value target. Which means a ship with a secret weapon would never be sent there in the first place.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
He was a numbskull and was only assigned to as a station commander because it was such a low-value target. Which means a ship with a secret weapon would never be sent there in the first place.

He wasn't even assigned Station commander - it just fell to him because he was the most senior naval officer assigned to the station.