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NEED TO KNOW

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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by tlb   » Tue May 10, 2022 11:13 pm

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cthia wrote:Does that include sharing them with the enemy?

I suddenly understand why the President is not given the real 411 on Area 51. He might elect to share Apollo-level secrets with the world, thus, with the enemy.

Plausible deniability.

And of course, the bit about "If I tell you I have to kill you" sort of thing.

Yes, the President can chose to share; even with an enemy. He is the Head of Government and State.

Why do you think the President does not what is going on at Area 51? If he does not know, it is only because he chose not to ask.

"Plausible deniability" is not relevant; lying to the President is a firing offense. I hope you are not suggesting that there is anyone who thinks they have the power and authority to kill the President because he wants to know what is going on in his government.
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue May 10, 2022 11:13 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
I would imagine that Honor would have been given direct orders not to share Apollo secrets with Young.


Which she might have to violate, if exigent circumstances require it.

Actually I tend to doubt she would actually have those orders.
We know that the Admiralty did not distrust Young's character and spine as much as, in hindsight, they should have. Sure I don't think any of them thought he was an outstanding captain; and a few of them loathed him, but overall they didn't think he was a security risk.

I can't imagine any situation where the Admiralty would leave a captain in command that they felt could not be trusted with knowledge of one of the RMN's deployed weapons system -- not even a brand new weapon.

If the Admiralty distrusted Young so much that they'd cut orders that another captain, placed under his command, was prohibited from briefing him on the capabilities of their ship they'd distrust him more than enough to have already yanked him off that bridge and either cashiered him or put him in some prestigious sounding but ultimately meaningless job.

I don't care what blackmail material his father was holding -- the military isn't going to keep a captain in command who (they feel) they feel is a legitimate security risk.


(And if the scenario changes to where Fearless doesn't have Apollo, but Honor still knows about it, then there's no longer any need for Young to know about it because it no longer affects his responsibilities)
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue May 10, 2022 11:22 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Does that include sharing them with the enemy?[snip]

Yes, the President can chose to share; even with an enemy. He is the Head of Government and State.

And there might be legit reasons for doing so.

Telling the enemy what your intel services have discovered of their actions might be a way to convince them to back down from a dangerous action. Even when revealing that might harm your ability to continue to gather that type of intelligence.


I vaguely recall that during the Cuban Missile Crisis Kennedy declassified some of the photographic reconnaissance of the missile bases so it could be published in the press -- despite that revealing something of the capabilities of US recon planes (which might help the Soviets, or others, figure out how to counter photo recon by, say, better tailoring camouflage to the now exposed capabilities)


And for various reasons you might want to share that directly with the enemy, rather than sharing it with the entire public (which also lets your enemies see it). Maybe you hope to keep it from other enemies, or maybe you think sharing it privately will increase chances of success by letting them save face by being able to back down privately instead of forcing them to publicly back down in the eyes of the world)
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed May 11, 2022 12:09 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:If the Admiralty distrusted Young so much that they'd cut orders that another captain, placed under his command, was prohibited from briefing him on the capabilities of their ship they'd distrust him more than enough to have already yanked him off that bridge and either cashiered him or put him in some prestigious sounding but ultimately meaningless job.


Agreed. But he was in a useless job in Basilisk. He was guarding something that didn't need guarding, because it wasn't that important (the status of whether it was part of the Kingdom or not was undecided) and was one transit away from the full Home Fleet. He couldn't do much damage from there.

But as you said, he wasn't a security risk. Just a numbskull.
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by kzt   » Wed May 11, 2022 12:36 am

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You don't give impulsive and not very bright people extremely sensitive information any more than you put them in charge of extremely sensitive operations.
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by Theemile   » Wed May 11, 2022 9:35 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:And there might be legit reasons for doing so.

Telling the enemy what your intel services have discovered of their actions might be a way to convince them to back down from a dangerous action. Even when revealing that might harm your ability to continue to gather that type of intelligence.


I vaguely recall that during the Cuban Missile Crisis Kennedy declassified some of the photographic reconnaissance of the missile bases so it could be published in the press -- despite that revealing something of the capabilities of US recon planes (which might help the Soviets, or others, figure out how to counter photo recon by, say, better tailoring camouflage to the now exposed capabilities)

<snip>


IIRC, The Cuban buildup was originally seen by a U-2 flyover - at that time the best US photo recon plane, but only flown by the CIA. The Kennedy Admin. quickly had standard Air Force Recon Planes flyover the island and re-take the photos, and these were the photos published, not the original, more advanced U-2 photos. This was done to hide the U-2 program and it's capabilities.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by tlb   » Thu May 12, 2022 7:38 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:And there might be legit reasons for doing so.

Telling the enemy what your intel services have discovered of their actions might be a way to convince them to back down from a dangerous action. Even when revealing that might harm your ability to continue to gather that type of intelligence.


I vaguely recall that during the Cuban Missile Crisis Kennedy declassified some of the photographic reconnaissance of the missile bases so it could be published in the press -- despite that revealing something of the capabilities of US recon planes (which might help the Soviets, or others, figure out how to counter photo recon by, say, better tailoring camouflage to the now exposed capabilities)

Theemile wrote:IIRC, The Cuban buildup was originally seen by a U-2 flyover - at that time the best US photo recon plane, but only flown by the CIA. The Kennedy Admin. quickly had standard Air Force Recon Planes flyover the island and re-take the photos, and these were the photos published, not the original, more advanced U-2 photos. This was done to hide the U-2 program and it's capabilities.

I vaguely recall that during the cold war, US authorities became concerned about the lack of safeguards in the Soviet missile launch procedures; so they "leaked" the US safety features hoping they would added.
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu May 12, 2022 9:58 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Agreed. But he was in a useless job in Basilisk. He was guarding something that didn't need guarding, because it wasn't that important (the status of whether it was part of the Kingdom or not was undecided) and was one transit away from the full Home Fleet. He couldn't do much damage from there.

But as you said, he wasn't a security risk. Just a numbskull.


So, clearly, n Young was someone who the Admiralty couldn't actually get rid of unless he committed some massive error. He was protected by the patronage system and a lot of money plus his father.
Harrington, on the other hand, had done a superb job -figuring out how to follow her orders with "the weapon that will not be named"- and was basically punished by shipping her off to the same dead-end assignment to get her out of the eye of the Senior Staff and remove Fearless from reminding too many people that a Lt. Crusier had just "killed" an SD in an exercise but then became almost the sole objective of being repeatedly killed over and over again because the "weapon" was only viable if the other side didn't know it was there. So Sonjia needed her out of sight as well. Harrington did her job....field test the weapon & tactics in the exercises and then deliver a full (and scathing but true) report on it's advantages and LIMITATIONS.

I don't recall any mention of any consideration of knowledge of past history between Young and Harrington as factoring into the decision to send her to Basilisk. Ok, it's plot driven, but it is also some place "usefull" that the ship can be sent quickly and not be underway almost anybody's eye. Certainly she could have been sent somewhere like the station with the terminus at Gregor A or Matapan and be far from news and publicity. Probably Matapan (of which we have been told very little) and where even an aging and now compromised light cruiser (with the "refit" with that weapon system) would be usefull in commerce protection.

Of course, we are shown that enough people in the Admiralty were both sympathetic of the unfairness of Harington's banishment and in the stellar approach with which Harrington picked up the job Young dumped on her and basically did the job he was supposed to have been doing.
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by Theemile   » Thu May 12, 2022 10:48 am

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Brigade XO wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Agreed. But he was in a useless job in Basilisk. He was guarding something that didn't need guarding, because it wasn't that important (the status of whether it was part of the Kingdom or not was undecided) and was one transit away from the full Home Fleet. He couldn't do much damage from there.

But as you said, he wasn't a security risk. Just a numbskull.


So, clearly, n Young was someone who the Admiralty couldn't actually get rid of unless he committed some massive error. He was protected by the patronage system and a lot of money plus his father.
Harrington, on the other hand, had done a superb job -figuring out how to follow her orders with "the weapon that will not be named"- and was basically punished by shipping her off to the same dead-end assignment to get her out of the eye of the Senior Staff and remove Fearless from reminding too many people that a Lt. Crusier had just "killed" an SD in an exercise but then became almost the sole objective of being repeatedly killed over and over again because the "weapon" was only viable if the other side didn't know it was there. So Sonjia needed her out of sight as well. Harrington did her job....field test the weapon & tactics in the exercises and then deliver a full (and scathing but true) report on it's advantages and LIMITATIONS.

I don't recall any mention of any consideration of knowledge of past history between Young and Harrington as factoring into the decision to send her to Basilisk. Ok, it's plot driven, but it is also some place "usefull" that the ship can be sent quickly and not be underway almost anybody's eye. Certainly she could have been sent somewhere like the station with the terminus at Gregor A or Matapan and be far from news and publicity. Probably Matapan (of which we have been told very little) and where even an aging and now compromised light cruiser (with the "refit" with that weapon system) would be usefull in commerce protection.

Of course, we are shown that enough people in the Admiralty were both sympathetic of the unfairness of Harington's banishment and in the stellar approach with which Harrington picked up the job Young dumped on her and basically did the job he was supposed to have been doing.



Remember, Honor refused to bring Young up on charges - Young only received a disciplinary action and had to apologize to Honor for his actions. The Commandant knew what Young had done (Through Henke reporting it) but without Honor admitting it, Young could only get a light slap on the wrist.

What actually happened became a well known secret over time, but a 3rd party looking at the files wouldn't see any issues to assigning them together. Heck, they got assigned together again in 1904, after everyone knew about what happen at Basilisk (which had completely stalled Young's career).
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu May 12, 2022 6:01 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:So, clearly, n Young was someone who the Admiralty couldn't actually get rid of unless he committed some massive error. He was protected by the patronage system and a lot of money plus his father.
Harrington, on the other hand, had done a superb job -figuring out how to follow her orders with "the weapon that will not be named"- and was basically punished by shipping her off to the same dead-end assignment to get her out of the eye of the Senior Staff and remove Fearless from reminding too many people that a Lt. Crusier had just "killed" an SD in an exercise but then became almost the sole objective of being repeatedly killed over and over again because the "weapon" was only viable if the other side didn't know it was there. So Sonjia needed her out of sight as well. Harrington did her job....field test the weapon & tactics in the exercises and then deliver a full (and scathing but true) report on it's advantages and LIMITATIONS.

I don't recall any mention of any consideration of knowledge of past history between Young and Harrington as factoring into the decision to send her to Basilisk. Ok, it's plot driven, but it is also some place "usefull" that the ship can be sent quickly and not be underway almost anybody's eye. Certainly she could have been sent somewhere like the station with the terminus at Gregor A or Matapan and be far from news and publicity. Probably Matapan (of which we have been told very little) and where even an aging and now compromised light cruiser (with the "refit" with that weapon system) would be usefull in commerce protection.


I don't think their relationship factored at all in the decision. As Theemile said, she never filed charges and I'm sure any word of mouth was quickly quashed by the North Hollow cronies. Young was a passable captain, most likely below average, but any mention of his actual problems was also quashed by North Hollow cronies and the patronage clique. So the Admiralty didn't know any better and assigned Fearless where they needed.

There's also been an explanation by RFC (which someone with better memory than I can report) that Fearless wasn't supposed to be sent to Basilisk at all. CL-56 was old at the time: she was supposed to be decommissioned and sent to the breakers. She was saved from that fate before the exercises specifically so they could install the grav lance on her. But once the exercises were done, she wasn't supposed to be sent anywhere. But somehow the embarrassment that TWTSNBN created was the reason Fearless was quickly shuffled aside.
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