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NEED TO KNOW

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat May 28, 2022 4:47 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Or it might have been decided earlier but tradition might well be that no matter how promising the officer is you don't tell them of their next command while in the ATC; you wait until after they've formally graduated (even if there's no chance they're going to fail out)


"This letter is to inform you that you'll be given the command of an unspecified ship, which we'll be gutting and installing unproven technology on, so you may participate in the exercises and employ tactics we haven't devised yet, so we can forestall an invasion by the People's Republic. No pressure. Good luck on your finals!"
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat May 28, 2022 7:43 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Honor got sandbagged, by a bunch of ego brushed Senior Officers.

She a got a Lt Cruiser - which was her #2 hyper capable command. Her 1st assignment with Fearless was to finish the "modifications" which crippled her ship and then demonstrated that a CL could "kill" an SD with it.
All of which she did.
The problem.........TWTSNBN is a one-trick pony in a platform as light as a CL (and an old one at that) and you have to wonder at the considerations given to it's survivability in an actual combat situation. Ok, she got close enough to the SD to use it......and though the shock and surprise managed to get away. But what happened in EVERY OTHER ITERATION of the War Games was clear enough that the concept was flawed.
Let me count the ways...
1) Perhaps- in a real battle- a CL MIGHT work it's way into "that weapon" range of an SD but would at least one system on the SD then try to target the really really close enemy CL that had just shot the SD?.....this is energy range. She got a way the 1st time because they were shocked....shouldn't anybody on the SD been taken to task for not at least attempting to ream the CL? Was the SD theoretically either destroyed or fully incapacitated?

2) Said CL doesn't actualy have the armor and probably the shielding to survive much of what an SD would throw at it....and Fearless was mercilessly and relentlessly swatted (as well as specifically targeted) in what seemed as deliberate payback for the initial success having blindsided the command staff who were not (it's a surprise, cann't spoil that) told about The Weapon nor how it could be used.

3) Honor did her job.......but being forced to try and replicate the attack EVERY time for the multiple times the War Game was run and then being "beaten" every time and having to endure repeated failure when EVERYBODY involved at higher levels knew after the 2nd round of the Games/Problem saw what was happening and yet she was essentially ordered to commit suicide time after time ....not only were her targets waiting for her, they figuratively obliterated her the moment she came anywhere in range of their weapons.

4) Senior staff felt they had to get Fearless out of sight, ok, that makes at least a little sense if they need to evaluate the results of the "tests" but instead of getting congratulated on making it work- at least the 1st time, having been ordered to keep doing it again and again against people who are specifically looking for you by name (HMS Fearless, - Harrington, we read you IFF), the sent her to a what was considered a "punishment" station.
Heck, they COULD have sent her right back out to Silesia and had her go looking for and killing pirates for several months....what pirate in their right mind would want to go up against even an older RMN CL? She could have been USEFULL. The Crew would have been able to get over the drubbing they took and they would have been being USFULL and doing something "normal" and needed in a place where they would be of use. How many tubes and how many missiles in Fearless's magazine were left after the tore her up to make the "modification"? Convoy duty in Silesia? Anti-piracy duty in Silesia?

She did her dam job- and did it well. Just what glory did the SD cover itself with after the that 1st round when they were sucker punched? I suspect it wasn't a lot (other than rub Hemperhill's nose in her failure once it was a surprise). So because some Admirals and Captains got their egos bruised they sent Harrington (and her entire crew) off on punishment duty.

Ok....plot driven.
IIRC Fearless got the first kill by basically turning herself into a stationary minefield and having
Hemphill maneuver her fleet to lure D'Orville within GL range of Fearless.

Then the surprise of popping her wedge online, bought her enough time to notionally blow D'Orville's flagship away, and the surprise of that bought her time to roll wedge and escape instead of getting mobbed by the missile broadsides of his surviving ships; or chased down by a DesRon or something.

I'd argue it only succeeded because D'Orville's fleet failed to properly scout their path. If they'd been punching RDs steadily down their course or even had their screen pushed out and paying attention they'd have seen Fearless before coming well within energy range of her. (And that's probably plot driven)

Once they'd had their little wake up call they did a better job sanitizing nearby space and pushed CLs high enough up their priority list that they'd divert missiles to kill any that even twitched their way. (So in some respect it was a good lesson to learn from the war game. Sure Fearless was just a one-trick pony -- but if Hemphill could lure the other fleet to within ~250,000 km of Fearless she probably could have lured them into an actual deep-space minefield (as Sarnow did later at Hancock)


As for duty in Silesia, Fearless probably could have done that but she'd be undergunned if she ran across an independence movement that got its hand on a proper CL or CA. I'm not sure if her tech edge would have been enough to hack that.
The refit left her with
On Basilisk Station wrote:the thirty-centimeter laser mounts, two in each broadside, plus the missile launchers [2 per broadside]. After refit, we'll have the grav lance and fourteen torpedo generators, as well, and the chase armament is unchanged: two missile tubes and the sixty-centimeter spinal laser.
. So she'd lost 5 missile tubes and 2 grasers per broadside. However I believe she retained her full defenses, what there were of them; 3 CMs and 3 PDLCs per broadside, plus 2 CMs and 2 PDLC on each end covering fore and aft)

Having fewer broadside tubes than even a destroyer of her era, and less than half the tubes of a modern destroyer, is going to hurt if you go up against anything of decent size with a half competent crew. OTOH most pirates in Silesia are crappy little obsolete ships; and Fearless can probably still take them thanks to significantly outclassing their defenses.


Still based on RFC infodump on this I'd see the most likely alternative to deployment to Basilisk being immediately sent to the breakers. (Maybe held around in Home Fleet for a little while to avoid making that look like a punishment for the war games -- but it was never going to be cost effective to restore her to her pre-testbed configuration) He specifically says that normally it would have been First Space Lord Webster who'd have overruled Janacek and prevented Fearless's deployment to Basilisk; but because he didn't expect anything to happen there he instead horse traded and let Janacek sweep the embarrassment under the rug; in a boring safe dumping ground of a posting. But if Janacek had instead tried to have Fearless posted to Silesia, where untoward things are absolutely expected to happen, Webster probably would have refused to do that and at that point in all likelihood Fearless would then have gone to the breakers. (Which probably would have looked worse for Honor, and been even more depressing for the crew, than being sent to Basilisk)
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat May 28, 2022 8:02 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:She did her dam job- and did it well. Just what glory did the SD cover itself with after the that 1st round when they were sucker punched? I suspect it wasn't a lot (other than rub Hemperhill's nose in her failure once it was a surprise). So because some Admirals and Captains got their egos bruised they sent Harrington (and her entire crew) off on punishment duty.

Ok....plot driven.

Also as far as I can see Hemphill was pissed, not really at Honor but that her attempt to break the tactical stalemate had failed. (Though she, unprofessionally, let some of that anger show in her post-exercise discussions with Honor) The other captains and admirals do not appear to have felt their egos seriously bruised -- not the point of wanting any retaliation over it. Though they probably felt some satisfaction in preventing her from fully succeeding a second time.

It was Hemphill's cousin, Janacek the politician directly overseeing the Admiralty, who seem to have thought the thing looked bad for her, and hence indirectly for him and his party's government, and without bothering to consult with Hemphill had Honor and Fearless shuffled off out of sight and out of mind. (As and mentioned above, the military head of the Admiralty, Webster, didn't block it because he didn't expect anything to go wrong and could get some thing he needed for the navy by letting Janacek have his way on this for a bit)
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by cthia   » Sat May 28, 2022 8:39 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Or it might have been decided earlier but tradition might well be that no matter how promising the officer is you don't tell them of their next command while in the ATC; you wait until after they've formally graduated (even if there's no chance they're going to fail out)


"This letter is to inform you that you'll be given the command of an unspecified ship, which we'll be gutting and installing unproven technology on, so you may participate in the exercises and employ tactics we haven't devised yet, so we can forestall an invasion by the People's Republic. No pressure. Good luck on your finals!"


Pardon the related transplant ...
Jonathan_S wrote:I'd argue it only succeeded because D'Orville's fleet failed to properly scout their path. If they'd been punching RDs steadily down their course or even had their screen pushed out and paying attention they'd have seen Fearless before coming well within energy range of her. (And that's probably plot driven)


I have long since mellowed in my angst against Hemphill. She was only trying to succeed in a very difficult task of keeping the RMN technologically ahead of the pack.

The problem is trying to figure out what scenario, what specific set of circumstances did she envision that would make the grav lance work. Exactly what tactic could anyone ever hope to come up with to coax your enemy into allowing you into energy range, let alone grav lance range?

The only tactic I can see working is immoral and unbecoming for an outfit with the RMN's reputation. At any rate, she could pull the Henke maneuver. Like the Picard maneuver? :D

"Sir, I am feeling a little hinky about approaching her ship so closely even though it is shitting escape pods at an alarming rate. Something about this situation just seems a bit... hinky." :lol:

The only way a grav lance would work in anyone else's hands except Honor's is while about to be boarded.

What scenario did Hemphill see? Only energy range duels would provide a chance to use it.

However, I may be wrong about the grav lance's range. I do seem to remember a weapon had a longer than usual range.

But I suppose that if energy range were to come home to roost, it is better to have a grav lance to increase your chances of survival. So for that reason I can see having one, IF there are no sacrifices in having it.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by Fox2!   » Sat May 28, 2022 10:13 pm

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Remember that the Jeune Ecole accepted attritional warfare. They'd be more than happy to trade a CL, or even a CA, for a BB, DN, or SD.

The crews of the attrited ships wouldn't be too happy, but such is war.
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun May 29, 2022 12:30 am

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Fox2! wrote:Remember that the Jeune Ecole accepted attritional warfare. They'd be more than happy to trade a CL, or even a CA, for a BB, DN, or SD.

The crews of the attrited ships wouldn't be too happy, but such is war.

And if this was used en-mass with entire squadrons of GL equipped cruisers throwing themselves at an enemy's wall then, to ensure they don't reach GL range (which IIRC is around half of normal energy range), their wallers might need to divert missile fire from your own wall onto the charging cruisers. That alone might allow your wall to win the missile duel and thus have the upper hand come the decisive energy range engagement. (Of course the obvious counter is to use their own cruisers, or battlecruisers, to charge forward and engage the incoming GL cruisers before they can reach the wallers)


Alternatively, thought we didn't see this being tried in the wargames, the Jeune Ecole could try to use them at the conclusion of a battle. Remember, one of the things that annoyed them was that either side could basically decline the energy range slugging match and escape while taking only moderate additional damage from your missiles. So it was hard to grind down an enemy as they could contest a system until you were about to inflict real losses and then turtle up and escape.
GL cruisers that were held back until the enemy attempted retreat at close range might be able to wreck that enemy. The enemy force presumably wouldn't be able to roll down and take the cruisers under fire without exposing themselves to the very energy range slugging match of opposing walls that they were trying to avoid. Yes, you'd lose cruisers as they bet their reaction time against an SD's as they crested over its wedge and could pit their GL + ETs against the SD's lasers and grasers. But in such a scenario you could try to mob each retreating SD, one by one, with multiple cruisers. And swarming under even 4 or 5 retreating SDs, though it cost you twice than in cruisers, would be a major attritional win -- one that the tactics and technology of the time otherwise denied you.

And, at that knife range, under the protective guns of your own wall of battle, enemy screen that tried to beat back the GL cruisers is likely to get hammered by your own wallers.
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Sun May 29, 2022 1:35 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Or it might have been decided earlier but tradition might well be that no matter how promising the officer is you don't tell them of their next command while in the ATC; you wait until after they've formally graduated (even if there's no chance they're going to fail out)


"This letter is to inform you that you'll be given the command of an unspecified ship, which we'll be gutting and installing unproven technology on, so you may participate in the exercises and employ tactics we haven't devised yet, so we can forestall an invasion by the People's Republic. No pressure. Good luck on your finals!"


"This message will self-destruct in 10 seconds"
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by cthia   » Sun May 29, 2022 6:42 am

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Jonathan, thanks for setting me straight that Fearless didn't really lose any defensive capabilities. Her losses were all offensive in nature. Although a good defense is a good offense.*


But something still seems a little hinky about the entire mess that was never explained. Hemphill kept harping on the fact that Fearless was simply a testbed that was never meant to see combat.

If that is true, then there must have been another ship that was slated for Honor. Who got that ship? Why would the Admiralty send anyone out in a testbed that was never meant to see action?

That line of reasoning is what led me to believe that Honor had been chosen for the assignment very early on. Unless she had angered the powers that be way before graduation or soon after. There was nothing that I can recall that Honor had done wrong. So it had to be her "outside the box tactics" which had her drafted for a raped command. Unless some wholeass in the Admiralty thought it was appropriate that she be given a raped command because she had survived an attempted rape herself. "Aww, she can handle it. Familiar territory."

Honor's misfortune could also have been incidental. Perhaps she simply became available (graduation) at the right time. I didn't get the feeling that the refit of Fearless was something that was easy, so, it is conceivable it wouldn't have been known when she would be completed. In fact, Honor had to take responsibility for having her completed. Honor had to restore a piece of junk before she could assume command. You want a ship, Harrington, build one from scrap. We are taking some of your armament.

But I digress. If Fearless was simply meant as a testbed that should never see combat, then what was the original plan to do with Honor and her crew after the wargames had concluded? Fearless was headed to the breakers. Was there not another ship available that was initially meant for such a fine officer who showed so much promise? The whole stinking rotten mess just sounds so unlikely and unrealistic.

So, through it all, I kept waiting for the prank to end and she be told of the real command that had been slated for her. After the wargames she should have been given the ship that was originally meant for her.

*An aside: At first glance, I couldn't understand what the author was thinking when he thought he could pass off a scenario of a CL defeating an SD as being realistic. But perhaps it was because even though an SD is much more formidable, she wasn't built to run away from a duel as Thunder of God was doing. In a stern chase all else is equal? Interesting.

Of course, Thunder could have flipped and taken on Fearless and sent her real thunder downstream, but that would have been counter productive to the whole manufactured ruse and false flag operation. ToG needed to escape.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun May 29, 2022 11:52 am

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cthia wrote:Jonathan, thanks for setting me straight that Fearless didn't really lose any defensive capabilities. Her losses were all offensive in nature. Although a good defense is a good offense.*


But something still seems a little hinky about the entire mess that was never explained. Hemphill kept harping on the fact that Fearless was simply a testbed that was never meant to see combat.

If that is true, then there must have been another ship that was slated for Honor. Who got that ship? Why would the Admiralty send anyone out in a testbed that was never meant to see action?
[snip]
But I digress. If Fearless was simply meant as a testbed that should never see combat, then what was the original plan to do with Honor and her crew after the wargames had concluded? Fearless was headed to the breakers. Was there not another ship available that was initially meant for such a fine officer who showed so much promise? The whole stinking rotten mess just sounds so unlikely and unrealistic.

So, through it all, I kept waiting for the prank to end and she be told of the real command that had been slated for her. After the wargames she should have been given the ship that was originally meant for her.
Hempill didn't necessarily have plans for Honor beyond the test of the GL cruiser concept. Once that was adequately tested Fearless would be scrapped; though if testing had gone well that test period might have been prolonged. At the point Fearless was no longer needed the Admiralty might have had another cruiser command for Honor (either a newer CL or an older CA), or she might have gotten rotated to a shore posting for a while. It's even possible that she'd done well enough that Hemphill would have taken an interest and tried to snag her to test out other new systems.

If the testing had gone really well and a GL cruiser design had gone forward it's even possible that Hemphill might have tried to pull some strings in a few years to get Honor one of those new cruisers. Or maybe not.

But even captains of the list, which Honor isn't yet, don't always get to go from ship command to ship command, to squadron command, to fleet command. (And even Honor, who RFC needs to keep on an interesting career path, took a largely 'offscreen' stint at the Weapons Development Board and another as head of Saganami island and the ATC)

So there very well may have been no next ship lined up for her after the trials. (Though as I said in an earlier post, they may have delayed scrapping Fearless for a while -- maybe serve attached to Home Fleet for a year or two before then; so Honor gets some decent time in command) And a ship's crew, in normal situations, doesn't follow their captain. So most likely if/when Fearless got scrapped the crew would be broken up; with BuPers spreading them around to fill in manning holes throughout the fleet (some into new builds, some replacing promoted or reassigned personnel, etc.). Though the next time Honor did get command of a ship she might be able to request some of her old officers and crew back, should there be suitable slots for them and should they be available.

Now this normal military functioning doesn't really make for a compelling story, nor a fixed cast of characters, and so RFC had extraordinary things happen for Honor and her crew. But if this was actually happening, not as part of plot driven narrative, and Haven's plot at Basilisk hadn't occurred most likely after a suitable period Fearless would be scrapped, Honor and the crew would go their separate ways into whatever next assignments the military bureaucracy assigned each of them.
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun May 29, 2022 8:50 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:[IIRC Fearless got the first kill by basically turning herself into a stationary minefield and having
Hemphill maneuver her fleet to lure D'Orville within GL range of Fearless.

Then the surprise of popping her wedge online, bought her enough time to notionally blow D'Orville's flagship away, and the surprise of that bought her time to roll wedge and escape instead of getting mobbed by the missile broadsides of his surviving ships; or chased down by a DesRon or something.

I'd argue it only succeeded because D'Orville's fleet failed to properly scout their path. If they'd been punching RDs steadily down their course or even had their screen pushed out and paying attention they'd have seen Fearless before coming well within energy range of her. (And that's probably plot driven)


Which is exactly why they needed to do the exercises in the first place. We don't know how long it had been since the last time the RMN had done a full-up exercise. Or let Sonja try things.

There are two possibilities for D'Orville's fleet to fail to scout: they were sloppy or they weren't. If they were sloppy, this was a very important lesson to them: they lost their flagship and commander in the initial shots of the first exercise, which was humiliating enough to drive the lesson home to not take situations for granted. They'd learn to always scout ahead and not rely on outdated information of what should have been there.

Or they weren't sloppy, which I actually find more likely. Not because it was actually acceptable to not scout. But because that was not how things were done. Remember that at this time everyone takes their cues from the SLN and if the SLN doesn't scout ahead because nothing could sneak up on the mighty SLN, then no one would scout this way either. It might have been that the stealth capabilities of RMN ships (and possibly everyone's) had climbed substantially since the SLN doctrine was frozen and never challenged again, to the point that CL with active reactors could hide in the path of a fleet and get within a light-second.

This wouldn't be the first time RMN doctrine departs from SLN's; we know the RMN had already begun relying far more on laserheads and preparing to face them in battle, something the SLN was ill-equipped for 20 years later. But this could be one of the first major departures in fleet tactics. It would be something that the RMN learnt early, before the war, while the PN would take at least 10 more years to learn (Esther McQueen's time).

As I said above: this may also be one of the first times they let Sonja try new things. If in the previous exercises both forces emulated the SLN, the result would also follow the SLN playbook. The moment that Sonja threw wrenches into that, eyes began to open.

So even if the grav lance was a failure, its attempt at using was a success at breaking the status quo.
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