ThinksMarkedly wrote:cthia wrote:I can see your point, but, you must not overlook the gray areas, which are aplenty.
Take your notion of lawful command. Lawful command is ripe with gray areas. The military teaches you to follow commands. Factor that into the possible awe inspired "hero worship." What lowly Ensign would you expect could hold out against unlawfully sharing need to know info with the Salamander? Could he or she be considered of sound mind and judgement if he refuses? It is conceivable that even Honor can be denied access to certain information.
You mean the 5-star Fleet Admiral who's married to the First Lord of the Admiralty and is personal friend with the Queen and Empress? Is there any military classification she's not allowed?
Anyway, indeed there are grey areas. As you say, in the military one has to follow orders, but also know which orders are unlawful and NOT follow those. That does indeed open up for a lot of subjectivity. A well-squared military must be flexible enough that the people on-site can adapt to circumstances and not be required to follow orders that have gone OBE, but not so flexible that no orders get followed and the strategists can't get anything done.
I'm not saying this is easy. That's also why there are officers and enlisted (in theory): the enlisted crew is taught to follow the officers practically blindly after a few months in Boot Camp, but officers are required to have higher education and are taught to think during the years they spend at Saganami Island. That's of course a remnant from societies of a couple of centuries ago where education was much less available to the population, and enlisted crew may not even know how to read and write, while officers usually came from the aristocracy and had well-rounded education. In an advanced society like Manticore is supposed to be, that's not the case, and yet the distinction remains.Therein lies the kicker. The "unlucky" Ensign - who is lucky enough to be trusted with this critical secret - CAN, according to the definition, decide that he can share it with someone else whom HE deems it is necessary to share the information with.
The problem lies in the fact that top brass know that fact as well. What lowly maggot in the Navy can turn down General Patton, Halsey, or the Salamander when the brass that they are wearing is blinding him.
Indeed, but as I said above, such brass is usually intelligent enough to know when they should ask for information. And besides, how would they know that the information was there to be asked in the first place? Doesn't that imply that they already knew about it?
And if this lowly Ensign is in Honor's chain of command, then she is most likely the ultimate CO in the area in the situation this is likely to happen.
In any case, hero worship does not change the rules. The ensign is supposed to ignore that and focus on the rules. The fact that it's difficult is not relevant at that time. What should have happened is that the situation not be allowed to happen in the first place, by those who created it. Don't put lowly ensigns in this position!Does anyone think Pavel Young should have been trusted with information about Apollo even if he had been alive? If Young would have been captured, he would have sung like a choir with an all-star ensemble. If given the chance!
No, which is why he'd never have been briefed on it or allowed anywhere near the system. He'd also have never been put in a position where he might get captured in the first place. He was court-martialled after the first real action he saw, so if he were still in the RMN during a time when Apollo existed, then it's because this court-martial gave him a desk to fly with a standing order to never let the seat temperature drop below 95% human butt temperature.
Unfortunately, he couldn't have been assigned to the RMN's equivalent of GSN Francis Mueller because he'd already made Captain of the List.If captured, Young would have sung. But he would not have hesitated in browbeating a lowly Ensign, or a Captain for that matter. And the threat of a career loss would have been the bull in the china shop.
I understand. But rules are rules. The ensign is not supposed to violate them because a superior officer is threatening retaliation. Though Pavel Young would never actually threaten; everything would be implied but never proven.
Yes. I am talking about the same Honor Alexander Harrington. Why not? Need to know is bigger than any one person. That is inherent in the definition.
Besides, it happened to her several times in text. It was necessary that she be kept out of the loop when they raped the command she was inheriting. She didn't find out that she was carrying Voldemort (grav lance) aboard Fearless until she had already inherited the command. One minute she was in her quarters twirling with glee, the next minute Courvosier was informing her that her command had been raped.
She got tangled up with need to know again when she had to inform, Captain Garrett was it, about a classified weapon's system. What if there had been a leak in Grayson's chain of command, what if there had been another Masadan spy? I agree it was necessary to share the info. But Grayson hadn't yet signed on the dotted line as it were. Conceivably Grayson could have decided to align themselves with Haven.
It happened to her again when she wasn't told about the games the Admiralty was playing with Warlock.
I suspect she was kept out of the loop when she was banished to Grayson. Actually that is a no-brainer considering how High Ridge felt about her. I understand that she wasn't really worth more than her weight in brass, then, as she is now, but, yes, I think that it is highly possible she could be kept out of the loop.
At any rate, Honor's credentials SHOULD NOT automatically qualify her for a need to know. Security clearances don't count. One reason she may be excluded is if she has been suspected of possibly being compromised. What if there is a chance that she has been nanited?
Asking how Honor can be kept out of the loop is sweating the small details again instead of accepting the premise. Small details that would only require the slightest push by that demon Murphy. Saying that "the chances of it happening was small" sounds like the apology you give to the Ensign who has been caught with his testicles in a vise. Real life comes at you fast.
There could be a carbon copy of Honor. A clone. An imposter, in the face of Nimitz being out of commission because he is seriously wounded and in a coma for months.
Making matters worse, the information that the Salamander may have been compromised may itself be classified as a need to know. You may not want to alert the clone, or its handlers that the cat is out of the bag.
It is failing to accept the premise again by asking how the info got out. Apollo is unprecedented. I suspect a lot of things were different aboard ship, post-Apollo. A couple of Ensigns who were responsible for loading the birds or connecting the special extension cords could have been overheard discussing their new duties.
If you are playing the "Honor's exalted status" card, then that is my point. Pavel Young would have the same exalted status in the eyes of some lowly baseborn Commoner.
Exalted status is in the eye of the beholder.