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NEED TO KNOW

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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:32 am

cthia
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dscott8 wrote:
cthia wrote:I can't argue with any of that, but my point is about the fear of the elephant in the china shop who might have the potential to ruin careers.


This is another aspect of the fact that humans are human. Yes, your high-ranking bull may smash up the china shop out of personal pique, and may retaliate against those who tried to protect the china from breakage. We've had plenty of examples of such self-centered pettiness to learn from, and what we've learned (or at least should have learned) is to construct a system that safeguards classified info and presents consequences to those who try to circumvent it, whatever their motive.

Neither humans nor systems can be made perfect, but in the words of one of RFC's favorite aphorisms, "All you can do is the best you can do."

Can't argue with any of that either, and I wholeheartedly agree.

But still, one cannot dismiss the brittle china when it comes to an Ensign standing in the shadow of "exalted" top brass. It is easy to say what one would do, or should do in the case when top brass who was left out of the chain illegally tries to ferret out information.

For instance, at some point in her life, Honor may no longer even be in the Navy and most likely won't have a need to know. It shouldn't be too difficult to imagine a starstruck Ensign being intimidated and giving her all of the classified info that he knows if she asks for it, pointedly.

In fact, in this situation, Honor may be able to be used to test someones resolve.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by dscott8   » Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:40 pm

dscott8
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cthia wrote:Can't argue with any of that either, and I wholeheartedly agree.

But still, one cannot dismiss the brittle china when it comes to an Ensign standing in the shadow of "exalted" top brass. It is easy to say what one would do, or should do in the case when top brass who was left out of the chain illegally tries to ferret out information.

For instance, at some point in her life, Honor may no longer even be in the Navy and most likely won't have a need to know. It shouldn't be too difficult to imagine a starstruck Ensign being intimidated and giving her all of the classified info that he knows if she asks for it, pointedly.

In fact, in this situation, Honor may be able to be used to test someones resolve.


Rephrasing your earlier position does not enhance it. In your scenario, given the extensive character development we've seen from the saga, Honor wouldn't pressure an Ensign to break security, and if she ever did, an RMN Ensign would know the rules and tell her, "I'm sorry, Your Grace, but I'm not authorized to disclose that information." Now, a Silesian or Terran Ensign might give it up, but that just shows the difference between an organization with proper training and discipline, and one that's a minefield of petty internal politics.
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:19 pm

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dscott8 wrote:Rephrasing your earlier position does not enhance it. In your scenario, given the extensive character development we've seen from the saga, Honor wouldn't pressure an Ensign to break security, and if she ever did, an RMN Ensign would know the rules and tell her, "I'm sorry, Your Grace, but I'm not authorized to disclose that information." Now, a Silesian or Terran Ensign might give it up, but that just shows the difference between an organization with proper training and discipline, and one that's a minefield of petty internal politics.


In fact, if the Ensign did give in to Honor, Honor would turn around and let the Ensign's CO that they failed the test and therefore needs remedial training on handling of classified information.
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Re: NEED TO KNOW
Post by cthia   » Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:40 am

cthia
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dscott8 wrote:
cthia wrote:Can't argue with any of that either, and I wholeheartedly agree.

But still, one cannot dismiss the brittle china when it comes to an Ensign standing in the shadow of "exalted" top brass. It is easy to say what one would do, or should do in the case when top brass who was left out of the chain illegally tries to ferret out information.

For instance, at some point in her life, Honor may no longer even be in the Navy and most likely won't have a need to know. It shouldn't be too difficult to imagine a starstruck Ensign being intimidated and giving her all of the classified info that he knows if she asks for it, pointedly.

In fact, in this situation, Honor may be able to be used to test someones resolve.


Rephrasing your earlier position does not enhance it. In your scenario, given the extensive character development we've seen from the saga, Honor wouldn't pressure an Ensign to break security, and if she ever did, an RMN Ensign would know the rules and tell her, "I'm sorry, Your Grace, but I'm not authorized to disclose that information." Now, a Silesian or Terran Ensign might give it up, but that just shows the difference between an organization with proper training and discipline, and one that's a minefield of petty internal politics.

I wasn't trying to redress the elephant in the china shop in hopes of camouflaging it; or even in hopes of highlighting it. I would hope an elephant would be noticed regardless of its mess dress.

I was simply trying to caution against complacence and the power of the human element. I detect a bit of "need to know" about each of them in your post. :D

We don't expect that Honor would try to feret out information that she hasn't been made privy to, but then, we should not expect - or we would hope - that any RMN officer would cross that line. But we do know that all officers of any given Navy are not created equal. Even in the RMN.

Regardless of whether Honor in her older, more senile years would do so, she might have actually come by a very important reason to need to know and the situation may not warrant the time necessary to go through proper channels; and that would bring us back to the Ensign listening to Honor and making the determination for himself. By the same token, the RMN also does not create Ensigns equal.

However, using Honor herself in the scenario was only intended to open ones eyes to what could happen when the size of the usual "bull in the china shop" becomes an elephant.

Honor, Hamish, Michelle Henke or any number of other key players can become the elephant in the china shop, whereby the usual 'bull in the china shop' is bad enough.

IOW, I was simply cautioning against complacence and overconfidence, and trying to highlight the human element. The RMN still has the limitation of employing humans.

But I agree with the gist of your previous responses that what you can do is all that you can do. I was simply trying to serve up the caviar, er, caveats. :D

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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