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Michelle Henke succession rank

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Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by Lonny   » Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:17 am

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Until Uncompromising Honor Michelle Henke was referred to as fifth in line to the throne. In UH she's referred to as third in line by the Detweilers on Darius and the group investigating the existence of the "Other Guys" in Old Chicago on Earth. Did 2 people in the line die in the Yawata Strike and I missed it?

Lonny
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:00 am

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Lonny wrote:Until Uncompromising Honor Michelle Henke was referred to as fifth in line to the throne. In UH she's referred to as third in line by the Detweilers on Darius and the group investigating the existence of the "Other Guys" in Old Chicago on Earth. Did 2 people in the line die in the Yawata Strike and I missed it?

Lonny


The succession is Elizabeth's 2 children Roger and Joanna (in order of birth), her brother Michael, her aunt Caitin, and Michelle. All were still alive as of the end _Uncompromising Honor_ (and, presumably, _To End in Fire_). Beyond them, you have to go to descendants of the siblings (assuming there are any) of Elizabeth's grandmother Samantha and so forth further back.

In other words, I don't know what the Detweilers were thinking (though perhaps the Ghost Hunters didn't know about Elizabeth's children).
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:08 am

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Lonny wrote:Until Uncompromising Honor Michelle Henke was referred to as fifth in line to the throne. In UH she's referred to as third in line by the Detweilers on Darius and the group investigating the existence of the "Other Guys" in Old Chicago on Earth. Did 2 people in the line die in the Yawata Strike and I missed it?

Lonny


The line of succession should have been, prior to Operation Hassan:

0. Queen Elizabeth III
1. Crown Prince Roger, her eldest son
2. Princess Joanna, her daughter
3. Duke Michael Winton of Serisburg, her brother
4. Lady Caitrin Winton-Henke, her aunt and Michelle Henke's mother
5. Calvin Henke, her cousin and Michelle's older brother
6. Michelle Henke

After Operation Hassan, Calvin dies so she moves up to fifth. That's also when she inherits the title of Gold Peak.

So how does she get to third?

According to the wiki, she is still fifth. The one theory I have to explain this is that both Lady Caitrin and Princess Joanna married nobles and therefore are ineligible to ascend to the throne. But I don't think that's what the Constituion actually says: it simply requires the heir to marry a commoner, if they marry at all. After all, Queen Elizabeth II was a widow and didn't remarry -- she instead had the Constitution updated to be explicit. In any case, Lady Caitrin is now a widow and would qualify like Elizabeth II did. Besides, she had always been listed in the line of succession in earlier books, even before the death of her husband, so it simply can't be the case.
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by kzt   » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:21 am

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Is it not impossible that the Detweilers are, gasp in horror, wrong? I mean, so far their plan have worked exactly as they hoped, but maybe this is where they go wrong?
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:56 am

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Lonny wrote:Until Uncompromising Honor Michelle Henke was referred to as fifth in line to the throne. In UH she's referred to as third in line by the Detweilers on Darius and the group investigating the existence of the "Other Guys" in Old Chicago on Earth. Did 2 people in the line die in the Yawata Strike and I missed it?

Lonny


What I neglected to mention in my previous reply, was that Michelle had been 3rd in line for several years. Since she is about 6 or 7 years older than Elizabeth, she was 3rd in line (after her mother and older brother) from her birth until Elizabeth was born. Mind you that was over 55 years before the events of _Uncompromising Honor_, so you would think a database of Who's Who would had been updated in the interval.
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by cthia   » Tue May 10, 2022 5:42 pm

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Lonny wrote:Until Uncompromising Honor Michelle Henke was referred to as fifth in line to the throne. In UH she's referred to as third in line by the Detweilers on Darius and the group investigating the existence of the "Other Guys" in Old Chicago on Earth. Did 2 people in the line die in the Yawata Strike and I missed it?

Lonny


What I neglected to mention in my previous reply, was that Michelle had been 3rd in line for several years. Since she is about 6 or 7 years older than Elizabeth, she was 3rd in line (after her mother and older brother) from her birth until Elizabeth was born. Mind you that was over 55 years before the events of _Uncompromising Honor_, so you would think a database of Who's Who would had been updated in the interval.

Question.

Can anyone whose time has come to ascend to the throne pass it over? If so, can they choose someone to serve in their place, or does it automatically go to the next in line?

Can Michelle Henke choose not to take the Crown?

I have googled it and in English law it says an heir cannot refuse his duties. Period. But what can be done if he does? Surely an heir won't be jailed?

Very late edit: whose -> who's


.
Last edited by cthia on Tue May 10, 2022 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by tlb   » Tue May 10, 2022 6:07 pm

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cthia wrote:Can anyone who's time has come to ascend to the throne pass it over? If so, can they choose someone to serve in their place, or does it automatically go to the next in line?

Can Michelle Henke choose not to take the Crown?

I have googled it and in English law it says an heir cannot refuse his duties. Period. But what can be done if he does? Surely an heir won't be jailed?

Between the world wars the British heir abdicated in order to be with the woman he loved (she might have thought that she could be queen); so obviously they could refuse the duties of the monarchy. The crown went to his younger brother, the next in line. So Michelle Henke could similarly refuse it; but I doubt that she would, since her sense of duty would compel her.

I really doubt that it would be acceptable to try to hand to off to someone other than the next heir.
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue May 10, 2022 6:10 pm

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cthia wrote:Question.

Can anyone who's time has come to ascend to the throne pass it over? If so, can they choose someone to serve in their place, or does it automatically go to the next in line?

Can Michelle Henke choose not to take the Crown?

I have googled it and in English law it says an heir cannot refuse his duties. Period. But what can be done if he does? Surely an heir won't be jailed?


They can just abdicate. Or create a situation where they become ineligible for the throne (for example in England, by converting to Catholicism).

Whether the abdication applies to their own heirs, I'm not sure. And whether that applies to heirs that haven't even been born yet.

In Manticore, as well as in the Netherlands, Belgium, and in Spain, the monarch has abdicated in favour of their direct heir (Manticore: Michael I for Edward I in 1539 PD; Netherlands: Queen Beatrix for King Willem-Alexander in 2013; Belgium: Albert II for Philippe, also in 2013; Spain: Juan Carlos I for Felipe IV, in 2014). So back in 2014, there were lots of questions if Elizabeth II wouldn't abdicate in favour of Charles.
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue May 10, 2022 6:25 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:They can just abdicate. Or create a situation where they become ineligible for the throne (for example in England, by converting to Catholicism).
And in Manticore we know at least one way to make yourself ineligible -- wait until you're the primary heir and them marry someone from the nobility.

Though RFC said though that the requirement for the heir to marry a commoner doesn't apply to people further down the order of succession. And further clarified that already being married to someone from the nobility would not bar you from the throne as long as the marriage happened before you were the primary heir.
Which is why to disqualify yourself you'd need to wait until you'd reached the head of the list and only then marry a noble.

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Can anyone who's time has come to ascend to the throne pass it over? If so, can they choose someone to serve in their place, or does it automatically go to the next in line?

Can Michelle Henke choose not to take the Crown?

I have googled it and in English law it says an heir cannot refuse his duties. Period. But what can be done if he does? Surely an heir won't be jailed?

Between the world wars the British heir abdicated in order to be with the woman he loved (she might have thought that she could be queen); so obviously they could refuse the duties of the monarchy. The crown went to his younger brother, the next in line. So Michelle Henke could similarly refuse it; but I doubt that she would, since her sense of duty would compel her.

I really doubt that it would be acceptable to try to hand to off to someone other than the next heir.
Minor correction. He wasn't the heir - Edward VIII was crowned King of the United Kingdom and Dominions and Emperor of India in January of 1936 and didn't abdicate to marry Wallis Simpson until that December.

Still, it establishes that the British Crown can be given up -- even if for some crazy reason they wouldn't let an heir decline it.

And, as a practical matter, it doesn't make sense to force someone to accept the crown against their will -- even if just to let them immediately abdicate. So if the heir to the crown (whether in the UK or Manticore) was adamant that they weren't going to reign then folks would probably figure out a way to let them give it up before being crowned. (Though they probably wouldn't let that decision be finalized until it was time to inherit; just to protect against a change of mind)
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by cthia   » Tue May 10, 2022 9:52 pm

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If you think about it, it really does make sense for the Crown not to want to make a habit of allowing an heir to refuse to accede to the throne. It is supposed to be an honor to serve the Crown. Abdicating and refusing would cast unsavory speculations on the Crown. I do suppose, however, that establishing an unbroken string of accepting, then allowing abdication for whatever reason, would be much more desirable.

That way the black mark of suspicion and speculation is on the heir and not the Crown.

Akin to allowing an "employee" to resign instead of being fired.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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