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Michelle Henke succession rank

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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue May 10, 2022 9:59 pm

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cthia wrote:If you think about it, it really does make sense for the Crown not to want to make a habit of allowing an heir to refuse to accede to the throne. It is supposed to be an honor to serve the Crown. Abdicating and refusing would cast unsavory speculations on the Crown. I do suppose, however, that establishing an unbroken string of accepting, then allowing abdication for whatever reason, would be much more desirable.


But it's not just an honor. It's also a duty and responsibility.

If the person in question thinks themselves not worthy of that duty, then they probably aren't. Best not to have a weak monarch. Or worse... just look at Gustav Anderman VI.
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by cthia   » Tue May 10, 2022 10:16 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:If you think about it, it really does make sense for the Crown not to want to make a habit of allowing an heir to refuse to accede to the throne. It is supposed to be an honor to serve the Crown. Abdicating and refusing would cast unsavory speculations on the Crown. I do suppose, however, that establishing an unbroken string of accepting, then allowing abdication for whatever reason, would be much more desirable.


But it's not just an honor. It's also a duty and responsibility.

If the person in question thinks themselves not worthy of that duty, then they probably aren't. Best not to have a weak monarch. Or worse... just look at Gustav Anderman VI.

Of course, it is a duty and a responsibility as well, actually, first and foremost. That is a given.

What isn't a given is your Monarch feeling the honor and the privilege of fulfilling the role, which says, "I am pleased and honored to serve," instead of "How do I shed this ball and chain?"

How can your subjects feel pride and comfort in a ruler who does it for the duty only, and not for the joy and the honor?

IOW, who wants a ruler who rather not rule?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by tlb   » Tue May 10, 2022 10:54 pm

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cthia wrote:If you think about it, it really does make sense for the Crown not to want to make a habit of allowing an heir to refuse to accede to the throne. It is supposed to be an honor to serve the Crown. Abdicating and refusing would cast unsavory speculations on the Crown. I do suppose, however, that establishing an unbroken string of accepting, then allowing abdication for whatever reason, would be much more desirable.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But it's not just an honor. It's also a duty and responsibility.

If the person in question thinks themselves not worthy of that duty, then they probably aren't. Best not to have a weak monarch. Or worse... just look at Gustav Anderman VI.

cthia wrote:Of course, it is a duty and a responsibility as well, actually, first and foremost. That is a given.

What isn't a given is your Monarch feeling the honor and the privilege of fulfilling the role, which says, "I am pleased and honored to serve," instead of "How do I shed this ball and chain?"

How can your subjects feel pride and comfort in a ruler who does it for the duty only, and not for the joy and the honor?

IOW, who wants a ruler who rather not rule?

That line of reasoning works better if you allow someone who does not want it to refuse. You just emphasize things if you require someone to accept and then permit them to immediately abdicate. How can the subjects feel pride and comfort in a state that is forcing the ruler into accepting and then has that ruler hop out at the first opportunity. It is better to let them refuse; than to put them in a place where they can deliberately do something out of pique, before they go.

PS:As Jonathan correctly pointed out, Edward VIII did accept the crown and almost immediately abdicated to marry Wallace Simpson. I believe that he accepted the crown thinking that he could bring Wallis Simpson in as his queen and abdicated when that was rejected.
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by cthia   » Tue May 10, 2022 11:22 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:If you think about it, it really does make sense for the Crown not to want to make a habit of allowing an heir to refuse to accede to the throne. It is supposed to be an honor to serve the Crown. Abdicating and refusing would cast unsavory speculations on the Crown. I do suppose, however, that establishing an unbroken string of accepting, then allowing abdication for whatever reason, would be much more desirable.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But it's not just an honor. It's also a duty and responsibility.

If the person in question thinks themselves not worthy of that duty, then they probably aren't. Best not to have a weak monarch. Or worse... just look at Gustav Anderman VI.

cthia wrote:Of course, it is a duty and a responsibility as well, actually, first and foremost. That is a given.

What isn't a given is your Monarch feeling the honor and the privilege of fulfilling the role, which says, "I am pleased and honored to serve," instead of "How do I shed this ball and chain?"

How can your subjects feel pride and comfort in a ruler who does it for the duty only, and not for the joy and the honor?

IOW, who wants a ruler who rather not rule?

That line of reasoning works better if you allow someone who does not want it to refuse. You just emphasize things if you require someone to accept and then permit them to immediately abdicate. How can the subjects feel pride and comfort in a state that is forcing the ruler into accepting and then has that ruler hop out at the first opportunity. It is better to let them refuse; than to put them in a place where they can deliberately do something out of pique, before they go.

PS:As Jonathan correctly pointed out, Edward VIII did accept the crown and almost immediately abdicated to marry Wallace Simpson. I believe that he accepted the crown thinking that he could bring Wallis Simpson in as his queen and abdicated when that was rejected.

You are missing my point.

The Crown represents the people. The people are "the many, the many who are more important than the few, or the one."

So, the Crown's image should never be tarnished in any way. And the family's business should be kept in the closet for the longevity and the honor of the Crown.

I am simply saying that I think it is much better to accept the Crown, even when not wanting it and then manufacture a story that "excuses" the abdication.

"Aww, he really wanted to serve, but his plate just wasn't clean."

In other words, if the Crown is like a marriage, then the Crown wants to be the one to tell the press that the Crown "broke up with" or "dumped" or "divorced" the heir. And not vice versa.

Sometimes the antics of grade school rear its ugly head...

"I broke up with her, she didn't break up with me."

It matters. The Crown is a social ball of wax.

A little bit of Harry and Megan. Ok, ok, a lot of "Harry and Megan."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed May 11, 2022 12:00 am

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cthia wrote:The Crown represents the people. The people are "the many, the many who are more important than the few, or the one."

So, the Crown's image should never be tarnished in any way. And the family's business should be kept in the closet for the longevity and the honor of the Crown.


Agreed.

I am simply saying that I think it is much better to accept the Crown, even when not wanting it and then manufacture a story that "excuses" the abdication.

"Aww, he really wanted to serve, but his plate just wasn't clean."


Disagreed. That story can come out later as a fraud, which is worse in the long run. Or maybe not even later: it might be an open secret that polite conversation simply avoids. Kind of like my dad when he sleeps watching a movie and, when we wake him, he says he's simply reflecting on what's been going on... sure.

I personally think that the image of the Crown would best served by selecting the monarch who really wants to serve, not force someone who doesn't want it, for however long. But what do I know? I don't live in a monarchy and never have.

In other words, if the Crown is like a marriage, then the Crown wants to be the one to tell the press that the Crown "broke up with" or "dumped" or "divorced" the heir. And not vice versa.


I don't agree with the analogy either. A marriage implies two, but the Crown and the monarch are the same while the monarch reigns. The Crown can't refuse the monarch, the people can't vote the monarch out of office or recall them. It would be like a one-person company saying sales really wants the deal but engineering doesn't: it's a nice allegory of the different competing responsibilities, but it's still one person making the decision.

A little bit of Harry and Megan. Ok, ok, a lot of "Harry and Megan."


That's different, because that one wasn't a single entity. We had Harry-and-Megan, Elizabeth-II-and-the-Crown, and the tabloids. At least.
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by Louis R   » Thu May 12, 2022 1:32 pm

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If I may?

Correction to the correction: Eddy etc succeeded to the throne in Jan '36, but was never crowned. He abdicated _before_ his coronation. [for reasons that have never been clear to me, it takes most of a year to organise a coronation in the UK. maybe they aren't supposed to start until after the formal deep mourning period ends? mind you, that's an awful lot of people have to clear their schedules to attend.]

Jonathan_S wrote:Minor correction. He wasn't the heir - Edward VIII was crowned King of the United Kingdom and Dominions and Emperor of India in January of 1936 and didn't abdicate to marry Wallis Simpson until that December.



IIRC, it is legally possible for a Prince [or Princess, now] of Wales to abdicate as well, and thus step out of the succession, although afaik it's never happened. Depending on how closely Manticore has modelled its house law on the UK's that might be possible for an Heir as well [Although, interestingly, Manticore has always practiced strict primogeniture, with the Crown passing to the eldest child, male or female. That only became true in the UK after Prince William married - long after the Star Kingdom was invented]. If they had any sense, they will also have provided for the exclusion of an heir who is manifestly unfit... hmmm... need to check my copy of House of Steel, since ISTR reading something to that effect...
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu May 12, 2022 5:50 pm

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Louis R wrote:Correction to the correction: Eddy etc succeeded to the throne in Jan '36, but was never crowned. He abdicated _before_ his coronation. [for reasons that have never been clear to me, it takes most of a year to organise a coronation in the UK. maybe they aren't supposed to start until after the formal deep mourning period ends? mind you, that's an awful lot of people have to clear their schedules to attend.]


Heads of government from other countries, sure. They have governments to run. But the royalty from other countries and the aristocracy, do they have anything more important to do than attend the new UK king's coronation?

Ok, maybe in 1936 they had to take a boat to go.
If they had any sense, they will also have provided for the exclusion of an heir who is manifestly unfit... hmmm... need to check my copy of House of Steel, since ISTR reading something to that effect...


I don t think there was any that was unfit, just sick. That was Michael II, son of Samantha I, father to Samantha II and grandfather to Roger III.
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by kzt   » Thu May 12, 2022 6:36 pm

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I vaguely remember here is some sort of body that has the power to prevent someone from gaining the crown or possibly removing them. But it's all very vague to me.
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by Fox2!   » Fri May 13, 2022 9:44 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
I don t think there was any that was unfit, just sick. That was Michael II, son of Samantha I, father to Samantha II and grandfather to Roger III.



He was also the only one in that string to never travel to Sphinx and bond with a treecat.
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Re: Michelle Henke succession rank
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri May 13, 2022 10:01 am

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Fox2! wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
I don t think there was any that was unfit, just sick. That was Michael II, son of Samantha I, father to Samantha II and grandfather to Roger III.



He was also the only one in that string to never travel to Sphinx and bond with a treecat.


Indeed, but to be clear, there's a cause-consequence relationship there: he wasn't adopted because he was sick and couldn't travel. And considering the adoptions happen when the two-legs is usually very young, this means Prince Michael was sick for a long time as heir too.
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