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TEIF: Behind the scenes

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TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by cthia   » Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:43 am

cthia
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City of Mendel
Mesa System


CATHERINE MONTAIGNE WAS APPALLED.

-snip-


pg. 4
For a moment, her mind fluttered away from the chaos and the human agony and suffering that must have accompanied it. What would be the term for an expert on methods of destruction? Demolitionist? No, that would be the person who did the destroying.


How about destructionist?

She shook her head slightly, as if to shed those useless questions.
She knew the city bore other, lesser—but no less obscene—wounds left by the "small" nuclear detonations and fuel-air bombs attributed to Ballroom terrorist attacks.

Cathy goes on to muse that those were not Ballroom attacks. But I was shocked to learn that the Ballroom uses such methods.

1. The Ballroom has a reputation for using nuclear attacks?

2. Fuel-air bombs or Vacuum bombs? Aren't these the same cruel thermobaric weapons that the Russians have reportedly used against the Ukraine?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by tlb   » Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:51 am

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cthia wrote:
She shook her head slightly, as if to shed those useless questions.
She knew the city bore other, lesser—but no less obscene—wounds left by the "small" nuclear detonations and fuel-air bombs attributed to Ballroom terrorist attacks.

Cathy goes on to muse that those were not Ballroom attacks. But I was shocked to learn that the Ballroom uses such methods.

1. The Ballroom has a reputation for using nuclear attacks?

2. Fuel-air bombs or Vacuum bombs?

The Ballroom specialized in attacks on specific individuals or specific groups of individuals; they did not engage in indiscriminate operations. So no, the Ballroom has NOT used nuclear attacks (not even the Green Pines attack was due to the Ballroom). Mesan Propaganda said the nuclear explosions were the result of Ballroom operations, but they were actually part of the Houdini coverup.

PS: I am not sure how a thermobaric weapon is more cruel than an equivalent amount of TNT or Dynamite. According to a Westpoint forum on the Articles of War:

"Thermobarics Are Not Inherently Indiscriminate Weapons"

"Conclusion

It is difficult to watch Russian forces shell civilians and attack maternity hospitals in the course of an unlawful war of aggression. The use of thermobaric weapons is a tempting addition to the bill of particulars against Russia, but it is important not to conflate the blatant illegality of Russian methods in Ukraine with the lawfulness of the means of warfare they have employed".
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:49 am

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cthia wrote:City of Mendel
Mesa System


CATHERINE MONTAIGNE WAS APPALLED.

-snip-


pg. 4
For a moment, her mind fluttered away from the chaos and the human agony and suffering that must have accompanied it. What would be the term for an expert on methods of destruction? Demolitionist? No, that would be the person who did the destroying.


How about destructionist?

She shook her head slightly, as if to shed those useless questions.
She knew the city bore other, lesser—but no less obscene—wounds left by the "small" nuclear detonations and fuel-air bombs attributed to Ballroom terrorist attacks.

Cathy goes on to muse that those were not Ballroom attacks. But I was shocked to learn that the Ballroom uses such methods.

1. The Ballroom has a reputation for using nuclear attacks?

2. Fuel-air bombs or Vacuum bombs? Aren't these the same cruel thermobaric weapons that the Russians have reportedly used against the Ukraine?

A reputation for them; quite possibly. Actually use them; no, not in any sanctioned attack.

The actual Ballroom makes very carefully planned precision hits to inflict terror on those directly supporting genetic slavery.

However as a secret organization they can't really stop other folks from claiming credit for attacks in their name -- and we've seen on Mesa that Seccies are willing to lash out with nukes when they can get their hands on them. There's little reason to believe that other attacks against Mesa, Manpower, or genetic slavers couldn't have been far less discriminate than the Ballroom's own attacks. But how could they prove that they were only targeted assassins; and those other attacks weren't Ballroom? (Heck, in some cases the other attackers might well believe they were Ballroom -- it's not like they have formal membership roles where you can check that your recruiter is actually a member in good standing)

Plus Mesa/Manpower has a interest in pushing the narrative of the Ballroom as unhinged killers who are a danger to anybody around them; and so would be using their hooks into media to push that story for any attack they could blame in any possible way on the Ballroom -- and probably aren't above simply pushing "hearsay" of non-existent attacks.

And then Manpower, and definitely the Onion, have been known to use large attacks they can blame on the Ballroom as a way to clean up their own loose ends. I doubt Houdini was the first time they used that concept (thought it'd be by far the largest) -- so some of the reputation for mass attacks were probably false flag operations (serving the dual purpose of cleaning up loose ends and blackening the name of the Ballroom)


Basically a (public) reputation for such attacks isn't the same thing as actually carrying out any such attacks.
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by Theemile   » Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:50 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:A reputation for them; quite possibly. Actually use them; no, not in any sanctioned attack.

The actual Ballroom makes very carefully planned precision hits to inflict terror on those directly supporting genetic slavery.

However as a secret organization they can't really stop other folks from claiming credit for attacks in their name -- and we've seen on Mesa that Seccies are willing to lash out with nukes when they can get their hands on them. There's little reason to believe that other attacks against Mesa, Manpower, or genetic slavers could have been far less discriminately than the Ballroom's own attacks. But how could they prove that they were only targeted assassins, and those other attacks weren't Ballroom? (Heck, in some cases the other attackers might well believe they were Ballroom -- it's not like they have formal membership roles where you can check that your recruiter is actually a member in good standing)

Plus Mesa/Manpower has a interest in pushing the narrative of the Ballroom as unhinged killers who are a danger to anybody around them; and so would be using their hooks into media to push that story for any attack they could blame in any possible way on the Ballroom -- and probably aren't above simply pushing "hearsay" of non-existent attacks.

And then Manpower, and definitely the Onion, have been known to use large attacks they can blame on the Ballroom as a way to clean up their own loose ends. I doubt Houdini was the first time they used that concept (thought it'd be by far the largest) -- so some of the reputation for mass attacks were probably false flag operations (serving the dual purpose of cleaning up loose ends and blackening the name of the Ballroom)

Basically a (public) reputation for such attacks isn't the same thing as actually carrying out any such attacks.


Let's not forget, the nukes on Mesa were a one time thing and the Seccies couldn't even use them without Zilwicki modifying them to remove the safety codes.

I'm sure that getting and using Nukes elsewhere is just as hard as it was on Mesa. Even though the Ballroom was "technically" government funded in many ways, they shouldn't use them even if they could - using nukes and indiscriminate weapons turns people and their stomachs away from your cause. As a terrorist, you have to draw the line on the innocents, even if they side with your opponents, or else you will lose the heats and minds (and funding) of your supporters.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:21 pm

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Ballroom attacks were fairly rare on Mesa and were closely targeted.

The Houdini attacks to cover the withdrawal of Alignment assets were just as targeted if you consider that the Alignment was looking for the most bang from the credit and so typically inflated the actual civilian casualties for greater effect of terrorism of the Ballroom in order to cover more extractions in each incident. They also paid particular attention to eliminating as many loose ends - spouses, family, etc- of extracts, particularly when those people were thought to be asking too many questions or would ask too many after deaths are known. And then there are things like nuking a soccer stadium in a heavily public service family (particularly security forces) that also had some identifiable manpower presence but also I believe served to cover a few Houdini deaths---it was just way too good of an opportunity to enrage the police and security along with general Citizens and blame it on Ballroom.
The apologists (after if any of it seeps out) for the Alignment and even it's top management on Mesa at the time, will point to the necessity of the rushed -and so much more expensive in loss of life in dramatic mass events- since Demon Manticore was getting closer and picking up steam as plot after plot went wrong for the Alignment operations.

You all know the story. It's NEVER the Alignments fault, someone else made them do it. The penalty for most failures of an alignment plan is people die, heck it is a given that any plan itself will be set up so that lots of people die (not the Alignment people) and each plan includes contingencies to both kill off the locals involved and paint the blame on someone else.

TEIF clearly shows the Alignment managing the decimation of a second of their own planets as diversions and covering their tracks.

Clearly they are still maintaining the path to galactic domination and murder billions to accomplish it. What do we see that passes for regret amount mostly to "we didn't kill enough of them" or "Harrington is part of a lost line and what an advantage she could have been if we could control her to do all that brilliant killing and destruction for us.
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by cthia   » Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:17 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
She shook her head slightly, as if to shed those useless questions.
She knew the city bore other, lesser—but no less obscene—wounds left by the "small" nuclear detonations and fuel-air bombs attributed to Ballroom terrorist attacks.

Cathy goes on to muse that those were not Ballroom attacks. But I was shocked to learn that the Ballroom uses such methods.

1. The Ballroom has a reputation for using nuclear attacks?

2. Fuel-air bombs or Vacuum bombs?

tlb wrote:The Ballroom specialized in attacks on specific individuals or specific groups of individuals; they did not engage in indiscriminate operations. So no, the Ballroom has NOT used nuclear attacks (not even the Green Pines attack was due to the Ballroom). Mesan Propaganda said the nuclear explosions were the result of Ballroom operations, but they were actually part of the Houdini coverup.

PS: I am not sure how a thermobaric weapon is more cruel than an equivalent amount of TNT or Dynamite. According to a Westpoint forum on the Articles of War:

"Thermobarics Are Not Inherently Indiscriminate Weapons"

"Conclusion

It is difficult to watch Russian forces shell civilians and attack maternity hospitals in the course of an unlawful war of aggression. The use of thermobaric weapons is a tempting addition to the bill of particulars against Russia, but it is important not to conflate the blatant illegality of Russian methods in Ukraine with the lawfulness of the means of warfare they have employed".

Thermobaric weapons are considered to be inhumane. The inhumanity of the weapon is better understood by its other name, the vacuum bomb. These things suck the air out of areas. Imagine being a small child, infant or frail adult, who is just out of the blast zone but experiences the suffocating loss of air that is quickly rushing out, right on the heels of just having the wind knocked out of them.

If I am not mistaken, a form of these kinds of weapons were once considered for fire fighting. A device that sucks the oxygen out of an area thus killing the fire.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by Theemile   » Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:12 pm

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cthia wrote:If I am not mistaken, a form of these kinds of weapons were once considered for fire fighting. A device that sucks the oxygen out of an area thus killing the fire.


Thermobarics are still used for Oil wellhead fires.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by tlb   » Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:16 pm

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cthia wrote:If I am not mistaken, a form of these kinds of weapons were once considered for fire fighting. A device that sucks the oxygen out of an area thus killing the fire.

Theemile wrote:Thermobarics are still used for Oil wellhead fires.

The area where the oxygen is sucked out of the air is very much in the blast zone; so the hypothetical child would die of blast effects, rather than oxygen deprivation. The first small explosion spreads the fuel out to mix with the air and the second small explosion ignites the resulting fuel - air mixture producing the main explosion (that is what uses the oxygen, there is no other anti-oxygen event).

Just regular dynamite can and has be used to put out oil well fires. Even jet engines have worked. Just check the news on what was done in liberated Kuwait after the retreating Iraqi army set wells on fire.

If you want to be cynical, the US military will not agree to designating them as inhumane because they were also used to clear caves in Afghanistan. As the panel said "The use of thermobaric weapons is a tempting addition to the bill of particulars against Russia, but it is important not to conflate the blatant illegality of Russian methods in Ukraine with the lawfulness of the means of warfare they have employed".
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:04 am

cthia
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:If I am not mistaken, a form of these kinds of weapons were once considered for fire fighting. A device that sucks the oxygen out of an area thus killing the fire.

Theemile wrote:Thermobarics are still used for Oil wellhead fires.

The area where the oxygen is sucked out of the air is very much in the blast zone; so the hypothetical child would die of blast effects, rather than oxygen deprivation. The first small explosion spreads the fuel out to mix with the air and the second small explosion ignites the resulting fuel - air mixture producing the main explosion (that is what uses the oxygen, there is no other anti-oxygen event).

And you are absolutely certain of that because of first hand experience? It is simple physics, you don't have to be in the blast zone to experience the effects if a powerful vacuum. Depending on the wind, time, and the location of the victims, the gaseous cloud may not penetrate the area. The bomb does have a limit. Being on the borderline may save you from the full blast effect, but it does not necessarily save you from the vacuum effect. Bomb effects usually color outside the lines. This forum has always had a problem with what occurs on paper as opposed to what occurs in real life.

tlb wrote:Just regular dynamite can and has be used to put out oil well fires. Even jet engines have worked. Just check the news on what was done in liberated Kuwait after the retreating Iraqi army set wells on fire.

If you want to be cynical, the US military will not agree to designating them as inhumane because they were also used to clear caves in Afghanistan. As the panel said "The use of thermobaric weapons is a tempting addition to the bill of particulars against Russia, but it is important not to conflate the blatant illegality of Russian methods in Ukraine with the lawfulness of the means of warfare they have employed".

I'd like to keep the discussion away from current politics, except mentioning it in passing. I created a detour thread in the Free Range section of the forum for that.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:27 am

cthia
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The ceramecrete towers on Mesa appeared as if they were bombarded by small asteroids. Some of it from "a more local source."


It occurs to me to wonder how prevalent the use of ceramecrete is throughout the galaxy. Would even poorer systems use the material and the techniques? Ceramecrete would dictate the appearance of the architecture. All planets may not want the same type of architecture. Which means kinetic strikes may be more destructive on any given planet.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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