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TEIF: Behind the scenes

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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:10 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But that low pressure area is pretty transient -- only long enough for the blast wave to exhaust itself, over expand, and collapse back in. We're talking a handful of seconds since the explosion -- and humans can survive exposure complete vacuum for that long without significant injury. (And of course to closer you are to the point where the pressure wave finished over expanding and revered the smaller the pressure difference behind it is -- so if you're far enough away that the overpressure didn't get you the underpressure's not going to either)


Minor disagreement. Humans can survive a short exposure to vacuum without injury, but we can not survive an instant's exposure to vacuum. While the lack of air itself only does meaningful harm from a lack of oxygen the sufficiently sudden loss of the air inflicts lethal lung damage.

From a practical standpoint I would think the only risk from low pressure would be to those inside the zone but not exposed to the blast front. Say, somebody in a hole in the ground. I have never seen information on how big the threat is.

Exactly! Instant vacuum, and without warning, just after having the wind knocked out of you.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by tlb   » Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:55 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:But that low pressure area is pretty transient -- only long enough for the blast wave to exhaust itself, over expand, and collapse back in. We're talking a handful of seconds since the explosion -- and humans can survive exposure complete vacuum for that long without significant injury. (And of course to closer you are to the point where the pressure wave finished over expanding and revered the smaller the pressure difference behind it is -- so if you're far enough away that the overpressure didn't get you the underpressure's not going to either)

Loren Pechtel wrote:Minor disagreement. Humans can survive a short exposure to vacuum without injury, but we can not survive an instant's exposure to vacuum. While the lack of air itself only does meaningful harm from a lack of oxygen the sufficiently sudden loss of the air inflicts lethal lung damage.

From a practical standpoint I would think the only risk from low pressure would be to those inside the zone but not exposed to the blast front. Say, somebody in a hole in the ground. I have never seen information on how big the threat is.

cthia wrote:Exactly! Instant vacuum, and without warning, just after having the wind knocked out of you.

I think the picture we should have in mind is the video from the old A-bomb tests, where first the trees bend away from the bomb as the initial blast front passes over and then the trees bend back toward the bomb site as air rushes back to fill the low-pressure area.

The problem with the previous formulation (aside from a confusing use of "vacuum" twice when one should perhaps have been "oxygen"), is that the low pressure wave is the rebound part of the blast wave, they are not separate entities. So unless there is a specific distance where the high-pressure part of the blast front is survivable, but the low-pressure part that follows behind is not; then this should not occur (however KZT says this is not the case, instead the low-pressure has minor effects compared to the high-pressure). I think that you have to be pretty far from the bomb site before you can hide from the blast front in a hole; specifically if the low-pressure behind the blast front is enough to hurt you, then the blast front is going to do much more than just knocking the wind out of you - even in a hole.

I recall that there was a NASA employee at a test facility that was exposed to a nearly complete vacuum and survived. From Popular Mechanics:
In the mid-1960s, everyone at NASA was gearing up to go to the moon. The unmanned Apollo test flights would begin in 1967, with manned flights the following year. But long before any components or astronauts when to space, every aspect of spaceflight had to be thoroughly tested by NASA engineers.

One of those tests involved how well pressurized spacesuits would perform in the vacuum of space. For these tests, NASA constructed a massive vacuum chamber from which they could pump out all the air. One of those tests, involving test subject Jim LeBlanc, did not go so well.

During the test, the hose that supplied air to his suit became detached, and LeBlanc was exposed to the effect of the vacuum for about 30 seconds. Fortunately, he was rescued from the vacuum chamber with almost no injuries, but if his rescuers had taken a little longer to reach him, he could have suffered severe health effects.
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by kzt   » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:53 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
From a practical standpoint I would think the only risk from low pressure would be to those inside the zone but not exposed to the blast front. Say, somebody in a hole in the ground. I have never seen information on how big the threat is.

I think research shows that blast barriers don't really work. The blast front follows the barrier surface. What they stop are fragmentation. So if you are not impacted by the blast I don't think you'll be impacted by the low pressure zone.
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:13 pm

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tlb wrote:So unless there is a specific distance where the high-pressure part of the blast front is survivable, but the low-pressure part that follows behind is not; then this should not occur (however KZT says this is not the case, instead the low-pressure has minor effects compared to the high-pressure). I think that you have to be pretty far from the bomb site before you can hide from the blast front in a hole; specifically if the low-pressure behind the blast front is enough to hurt you, then the blast front is going to do much more than just knocking the wind out of you - even in a hole.


The blast wave can't make a sharp turn.
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by tlb   » Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:51 pm

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tlb wrote:So unless there is a specific distance where the high-pressure part of the blast front is survivable, but the low-pressure part that follows behind is not; then this should not occur (however KZT says this is not the case, instead the low-pressure has minor effects compared to the high-pressure). I think that you have to be pretty far from the bomb site before you can hide from the blast front in a hole; specifically if the low-pressure behind the blast front is enough to hurt you, then the blast front is going to do much more than just knocking the wind out of you - even in a hole.

Loren Pechtel wrote:The blast wave can't make a sharp turn.

According to the Wikipedia article on Blast Wave:
Blast waves will wrap around objects and buildings. Therefore, persons or objects behind a large building are not necessarily protected from a blast that starts on the opposite side of the building. Scientists use sophisticated mathematical models to predict how objects will respond to a blast in order to design effective barriers and safer buildings.
KZT said something similar. So you are not necessarily wrong, but that is very dependent on geometry and I would not wish to take the chance that my hole was adequate protection (unless I was sufficiently far away.
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:02 pm

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tlb wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:The blast wave can't make a sharp turn.

According to the Wikipedia article on Blast Wave:
Blast waves will wrap around objects and buildings. Therefore, persons or objects behind a large building are not necessarily protected from a blast that starts on the opposite side of the building. Scientists use sophisticated mathematical models to predict how objects will respond to a blast in order to design effective barriers and safer buildings.
KZT said something similar. So you are not necessarily wrong, but that is very dependent on geometry and I would not wish to take the chance that my hole was adequate protection (unless I was sufficiently far away.


There is some ability to turn but it loses a lot of power in doing so. A building doesn't make you invulnerable, but the more it has to turn to get to you the weaker it will be.
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by kzt   » Sun May 01, 2022 2:52 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:There is some ability to turn but it loses a lot of power in doing so. A building doesn't make you invulnerable, but the more it has to turn to get to you the weaker it will be.

Blast barriers offer useful reduction in blast wave only if you are essentially right next to it on the protected side. If you are some distance away there is negligible benefit. IIRC, you have to be closer to the barrier than the barrier is high to get a significant benefit. But I may be remembering that wrong.
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun May 01, 2022 11:05 pm

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:There is some ability to turn but it loses a lot of power in doing so. A building doesn't make you invulnerable, but the more it has to turn to get to you the weaker it will be.

Blast barriers offer useful reduction in blast wave only if you are essentially right next to it on the protected side. If you are some distance away there is negligible benefit. IIRC, you have to be closer to the barrier than the barrier is high to get a significant benefit. But I may be remembering that wrong.


Yeah, that's what I'm talking about--near a barrier. Say, in a hole in the ground when the blast wave passes over.
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Mon May 02, 2022 12:58 am

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:There is some ability to turn but it loses a lot of power in doing so. A building doesn't make you invulnerable, but the more it has to turn to get to you the weaker it will be.

Blast barriers offer useful reduction in blast wave only if you are essentially right next to it on the protected side. If you are some distance away there is negligible benefit. IIRC, you have to be closer to the barrier than the barrier is high to get a significant benefit. But I may be remembering that wrong.


That assumes that the blast doesn't blow the barrier down.
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Re: TEIF: Behind the scenes
Post by kzt   » Mon May 02, 2022 1:17 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
kzt wrote:Blast barriers offer useful reduction in blast wave only if you are essentially right next to it on the protected side. If you are some distance away there is negligible benefit. IIRC, you have to be closer to the barrier than the barrier is high to get a significant benefit. But I may be remembering that wrong.


That assumes that the blast doesn't blow the barrier down.

Well, sure, if the blast destroys the barrier you are toast. Typically dedicated blast barriers are very difficult to destroy, massive concrete or earth berms.
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